Fear (mysticism, contradiction, beliefs, creation, experience)

[Scarlett Wampus]

If mysticism really does open the mind and dissolves forms of mental conditioning its reasonable to assume that isn't always a pleasant experience. I think people's experiences suggest this too, both as personal responses to mystical experience and responses from others when such experiences are brought up in discussion. Even if mystical experiences are highly pleasurable and seen to be very positive the shock to the mind can be enough to make it fearful.

Have you ever become fearful when pursuing mysticism? If so, how did that play out?

The reason I'm asking is a bit off-topic. I'm having dreams following some so-called 'peak' experiences and they leave me frightened. Its not that the dream imagery itself suggests anything particularly frightening. They're mostly about crossing boundaries - everything from mildly embarrassing social taboos to impossible alien wonderlands. What's scaring me is how intensely vivid and strange they are. I don't want them to stop I'm just, you know, alarmed that my mind can produce them in the first place.

[Willamena]

I wasn't fearful of what I experienced, because it was just me.

[Scarlett Wampus]

That may be so but if what you were experiencing was nothing like you as you've come to know yourself you might be alarmed. Also, if changes in consciousness are sudden and rather pronounced it be alarming.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

That may be so but if what you were experiencing was nothing like you as you've come to know yourself you might be alarmed. Also, if changes in consciousness are sudden and rather pronounced it be alarming.

There is no consciousness that is not me, and there is nothing that is like me, except of course the thing I call "me." As I can only experience things that are not "me" then everything I experience will not be "like me."

If you're talking about experiencing a change in that which you call yourself, think of it this way: is whoever/whatever is experiencing the changing what is changed, or is the change something they experience?

Edit: That sounds contradictory to what I said previously, but I didn't intend that (this contradiction happens a lot lately, sorry). One experience of unity is the realization that "not me" and "me" are one; that what is experienced and the experiencer are one and the same. I garnered this experience reading things Doppleganger had wrote on his blog about language, coupled with my existing learning at that time. When you "attain" the paradigm that explains the reality that effectively does away with the divide between experiencer and experienced, that is (what some call) a "mystic" experience. And no, it's not scary.

[Scarlett Wampus]

Originally Posted by Willamena

If you're talking about experiencing a change in that which you call yourself, think of it this way: is whoever/whatever is experiencing the changing what is changed, or is the change something they experience?

Edit: That sounds contradictory to what I said previously, but I didn't intend that (this contradiction happens a lot lately, sorry). One experience of unity is the realization that "not me" and "me" are one; that what is experienced and the experiencer are one and the same. I garnered this experience reading things Doppleganger had wrote on his blog about language, coupled with my existing learning at that time. When you "attain" the paradigm that explains the reality that effectively does away with the divide between experiencer and experienced, that is (what some call) a "mystic" experience. And no, it's not scary.

I'm ok in theory with the experience of there being no divide between experience and experience-r. I'm also ok with there being nothing tangible behind this, in theory. It seems though, that these things are still trouble to me when they're experienced as an actuality.

To get down to it, I was getting a feeling of real inconsistency of 'self' about a couple of months ago. Not unusual given my interests but somewhat different and more persistent that I'm accustomed to. After a while I was longing for it all just to stop because I found the experience of constantly not-being-a-tangible-thing tiresome. It wasn't so much that in itself, I don't care that there is nothing to me, but the way my mind constantly, even mechanically, kept trying to make sense out of the senseless and re-introduce a narrative got very boring. This eventually started manifesting as a sincere desire to die, not in the depressive sense, but a sincere wish to become and experience something very different - at the least to get rid of that constant mental noise. So, I started meditating more than usual and this quickly led to getting blissed-out only it was much much more intense than at times in the past. It was ridiculously blissful. Sometime after that the strange dreams I mentioned started and I find myself feeling more and more lost with the outer world and my inconsistent 'self' starting to seem alien, a bit like my dreams.

I think I'm going through some kind of mild ego-death. Thrilling, but not without its scrapes.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

If mysticism really does open the mind and dissolves forms of mental conditioning its reasonable to assume that isn't always a pleasant experience. I think people's experiences suggest this too, both as personal responses to mystical experience and responses from others when such experiences are brought up in discussion. Even if mystical experiences are highly pleasurable and seen to be very positive the shock to the mind can be enough to make it fearful.

I understand, but politely disagree. The mystical experience should NEVER precipitate any feelings of fear or alienation, period. Such experiences should always have a unifying effect and a stabilitizing effect -- unless ... ... One is desperately trying to shoe-horn the experiences into preconceived notions of how reality ought to behave. Fear and alienation are much more likely, imho, to result from failure to let go of the attachement to specific mental projections deemed by the "conscious" self as being aspects of "core reality". Trust me, Wamper, we ain't exactly in Kansas when dealing with this "level" of perception/creation.

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

Have you ever become fearful when pursuing mysticism? If so, how did that play out?

Very, very rarely. The only times I got "spooked" as it were was when I was forcing my projections ONTO the raw experience. What you have to do is to dismantle the expectations or reinvestigate what produces said experience. The experience is telling you that you are misunderstanding something almost completely and a fearful experience should be recognize as being like a cosmic STOP sign. However, even if you do not recognize the experience as your own creation you will be "stuck" in that "area" of experience until you understand how it is your own beliefs structures ABOUT reality that precipitate the experience. I hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

The reason I'm asking is a bit off-topic. I'm having dreams following some so-called 'peak' experiences and they leave me frightened. Its not that the dream imagery itself suggests anything particularly frightening. They're mostly about crossing boundaries - everything from mildly embarrassing social taboos to impossible alien wonderlands. What's scaring me is how intensely vivid and strange they are. I don't want them to stop I'm just, you know, alarmed that my mind can produce them in the first place.

I'm just heading out on a "pilgrimage to Cantebury" and will have to deal with this later...

[Storm]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

I understand, but politely disagree. The mystical experience should NEVER precipitate any feelings of fear or alienation, period.

Depends on what type of experience. In the void, for instance, many people are frightened by themselves. The trick is to overcome that fear.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

I'm ok in theory with the experience of there being no divide between experience and experience-r. I'm also ok with there being nothing tangible behind this, in theory. It seems though, that these things are still trouble to me when they're experienced as an actuality.

To get down to it, I was getting a feeling of real inconsistency of 'self' about a couple of months ago. Not unusual given my interests but somewhat different and more persistent that I'm accustomed to. After a while I was longing for it all just to stop because I found the experience of constantly not-being-a-tangible-thing tiresome. It wasn't so much that in itself, I don't care that there is nothing to me...

Halt. While there is "nothing to you," there is also nothing that is not you, so there is "everything to you." No divide doesn't mean you are some half that gets surrendered to and swallowed up in the other. Unity should unite you with the other, neither surrendered, neither swallowed, both "the whole." For you, it seems to me, reading these words, understanding is only a half-story, and it's that half-ness that has you down.

I'm not one to give advice, because I so often get it wrong, and I'm not trying to dismiss what you felt; but with new understanding come new feelings.

...but the way my mind constantly, even mechanically, kept trying to make sense out of the senseless and re-introduce a narrative got very boring. This eventually started manifesting as a sincere desire to die, not in the depressive sense, but a sincere wish to become and experience something very different - at the least to get rid of that constant mental noise. So, I started meditating more than usual and this quickly led to getting blissed-out only it was much much more intense than at times in the past. It was ridiculously blissful. Sometime after that the strange dreams I mentioned started and I find myself feeling more and more lost with the outer world and my inconsistent 'self' starting to seem alien, a bit like my dreams.

I think I'm going through some kind of mild ego-death. Thrilling, but not without its scrapes.

In some quarters we just call that "Scorpio" ...the need/want to experience the whole, but in doing so you're still holding off the whole, treating it as the other when it's just you.
...like being in the mist of Avalon in Arthurnian legend.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

... One is desperately trying to shoe-horn the experiences into preconceived notions of how reality ought to behave.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

If mysticism really does open the mind and dissolves forms of mental conditioning its reasonable to assume that isn't always a pleasant experience. I think people's experiences suggest this too, both as personal responses to mystical experience and responses from others when such experiences are brought up in discussion. Even if mystical experiences are highly pleasurable and seen to be very positive the shock to the mind can be enough to make it fearful.

Have you ever become fearful when pursuing mysticism? If so, how did that play out?

There's always some element of fear for me Scarlett. Anytime we reach for something we find ourselves in the position of having to let go of something else. For me, if I'm trying to gain a clearer or deeper perspective, I have to let go of some part of my ignorance, and I'm rather attached to that.

My ignorance does all kinds of things for me; it gives me excuses not to live up to my responsibilities, encourages me to be self-indulgent, tells me I'm right when I'm not,...

It's hard to let go of a friend like that.

Also, it gives me everything on credit; "do this now and worry about the price tag later", whereas this other thing, whatever you want to call IT, demands payment upfront, and more times than not IT won't even tell me what it is I'm paying for.

So, at least for a very long time, there was always a fear vs faith conflict involved. Oftentimes there still is, just not always.

Experience has shown me that my ignorance really doesn't have my best interests at heart. It's a bad friend, and a bad friend is the worst kind of enemy. Anytime I've ever gotten the bill for whatever it sold me it's always been quite abit more than I would have agreed to pay up front. Especially with all the interest, all the hidden charges, and the fact that it was consistently selling my shoddy merchandise that never even began to live up to the sales ad.

On the other hand, I realize now that this other thing was always offering me incredible bargins, and that the reasons it seldom told me what it was I was purchasing was that in many cases, there were no words to describe it, and even if there had been I wouldn't have been able to appreciate their value at the time.

But there's still fear, I'm still attached to my ignorance, even with all it's cost me.

The wonderful thing now is that for the most part (now that I know who my real enemy is) the fear just makes everything that much more exciting. It means I'm confronting something, and on the other side of that something (which is almost certainly just a shadow anyway) is something unimaginibly beautiful.

Now life isn't an ordel, it's a quest, and what's a quest without a villain or two to cross swords with?

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

The reason I'm asking is a bit off-topic. I'm having dreams following some so-called 'peak' experiences and they leave me frightened. Its not that the dream imagery itself suggests anything particularly frightening. They're mostly about crossing boundaries - everything from mildly embarrassing social taboos to impossible alien wonderlands. What's scaring me is how intensely vivid and strange they are. I don't want them to stop I'm just, you know, alarmed that my mind can produce them in the first place.

Finding out what your mind is capable of producing can be a bit of a shock. The creative power is a mystery in itself and in my belief, it's one of our most powerful connections to the bigger mystery.

We open that door and the light from within can knock us on our butts .

Gotta give your eyes some time to adjust.