On "Buddha’s Little Joke"

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by SageTree

Wow... I'd love to be able to report this on another forum I'm on for discussion.

Is that okay given that it's anonymous and all, that is, unless you want props for it if it's okay.

But nice dude.... I likey.

Well, thank you, SageTree. You are welcome to post this on another forum providing you use the tag, "Used by permission. All rights reserved." as well as provide a link to the thread location.

[SageTree]

You're serious about the stuff in quotes right?

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by SageTree

You're serious about the stuff in quotes right?

Considering you are thinking of putting my work somewhere I am not familiar with, then, yes... regardless of the questionable quality of the content.

[SageTree]

Right on man. Cheers. I appreciate it.

[DreadFish]

Originally Posted by Willamena

I think I have to give Buddha a little more credit than you appear to do.

It's not that there's no "Nirvana," it's just that Nirvana and Samsara are one, and (yes) neither is a place.

It always seemed more like a condition to me, for lack of a better word. A condition beyond conditions and causes, so naturally "condition" isn't the best word. It's just described as being the cessation of anger, greed and ignorance. All of which would come from mistaken identification with conditioned phenomena as "I" and "mine". Without and "I" or "mine" there is no reason to crave, so no greed, no reason to anger, because there is nothing to be defensive about nor anything to attack, and of course no ignorance because the ignorance starts with "name and form" and there are no objects to be named or to be possessing of concrete forms if there is no inherent subject.

That's my disorganized view of things Again, the thing is, its only intellectual, I have little experience.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Willamena

I think I have to give Buddha a little more credit than you appear to do.

I don't have many issues with Buddha, per se, Buddhism, on the other hand...

Originally Posted by Willamena

It's not that there's no "Nirvana," it's just that Nirvana and Samsara are one, and (yes) neither is a place.

I've given up on such meaningless labels. There is only Reality.

[apophenia]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

I don't have many issues with Buddha, per se, Buddhism, on the other hand...

I've given up on such meaningless labels. There is only Reality.

He gave them the hope of Enlightenment and the tantalizing concept of Nirvana. In some ways, he decided the best route was to tell a lie, by outlining a procedure and path that led to “Nirvana” being fully cognizant of what awaited the individual once they got “there”. It’s not like upon realizing “Nirvana” anyone would think that they had been cheated. It is my view that only one with an unbounded sense of humor could conceive of such a wonderful joke. The joke is that “Nirvana” does not really exist (but by the time you get to the stage where you are nearing the imagined realization you will well understand the mirth behind the joke. In chasing the phantom of “Nirvana” one discovers much along the way that CANNOT be described in words.)

I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you heard the teaching I received from tulku Traleg Rinpoche. Traleg is a master of the Karma Kagyu lineage.

Karma Kagyu teaches the 'vertical path', in other words it is considered to be the fast-track approach, as opposed to the 'lam rim' or gradual path more generally taught. The specific teaching is called Mahamudra. It is very similar to Dzogchen, and Traleg also gave teachings on Dzogchen and invited Dzogchen masters to give us teaching.

To get to the point - realisation is considered to be the recognition of one's nature as having the aspects of nirvana and samsara. Always and simultaneously. This is called 'co-emergence'.

You once noted that I had mentioned 'brahmajyoti' (hindu term for the light associated with Brahman), and we discussed the significance of your religion nominated beside your avatar as being 'beyond the light'. Without getting caught up in endless qualification and terminology, nirvana is that aspect of our nature which is 'beyond the light'. Samsara from the Karma Kagyu perspective means 'conceptual mind' in the most general way. ( The moving parts ...)

So, nirvana is not a state to be achieved, nor a kind of blissful afterlife. It is innately and always the ground of your nature, as samsara is always the expression of your nature. Mahamudra is therefore the recognition of your own nature as the co-emergence of nirvana and samsara.

That is the Kagyu view, and it seems to me that that is your view. I would love to share with you some writings from various Tibetans over the centuries which are not generally published, because I have no doubt that you would find the thoughts and expressions of 'enlightened' Tibetan masters to be very familiar.

You would be classified as a 'thogal' type. There are three kinds of practitioners, the 'lam rim' type (slow and gradual, very book-oriented), the thogal type ('leaping over', or 'direct crossing' - people who have spontaneous insights and are experience-oriented) and the chikcherpa (spelling ?) who are naturally enlightened instantly or even from birth.

As for 'Buddha's Little Joke' - hard to say, though I have had similar thoughts. I tend to think the real issue here is that we are hearing his words second-hand (or ten-thousandth-hand). The word 'upaya' is also significant here, it means a trick or skillful means by which understanding may be transmitted.

I no longer associate with buddhists and teachings and so forth. I took Alan Watts' advice and hung up the phone before I got too hung-up on the phone, lol. And like you, much was realised because of something I ate. I am saying this because I don't identify as a 'buddhist' specifically. I practice iznoism

Iznoism has always been around. It doesn't always advertise. One further comment at this point - I think the upaya is not so much a joke, as a way of avoiding the unfortunate outcome that a person would assume that there was no point in examining their existence at all and fall into egotistical solipsism, imagining that this was 'zen'.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by apophenia

To get to the point - realisation is considered to be the recognition of one's nature as having the aspects of nirvana and samsara. Always and simultaneously. This is called 'co-emergence'.

My own thoughts while I was writing this and still thinking of posting it up on RF was that IF Nirvana exists, it is simply as a point of permanent inner evolution, where the individual can no longer be easily distracted from inner reality. Prior to that "point" one can still lose sight depending of circumstances.

Originally Posted by apophenia

So, nirvana is not a state to be achieved, nor a kind of blissful afterlife. It is innately and always the ground of your nature, as samsara is always the expression of your nature. Mahamudra is therefore the recognition of your own nature as the co-emergence of nirvana and samsara.

I rather like the "grounding" concept but am more inclined to go with a "well spring" that continually radiates in all directions, simultaneously.

Originally Posted by apophenia

That is the Kagyu view, and it seems to me that that is your view. I would love to share with you some writings from various Tibetans over the centuries which are not generally published, because I have no doubt that you would find the thoughts and expressions of 'enlightened' Tibetan masters to be very familiar.

No doubt and I'd suggest there are some very good reasons why that might be very familiar.

Originally Posted by apophenia

You would be classified as a 'thogal' type. There are three kinds of practitioners, the 'lam rim' type (slow and gradual, very book-oriented), the thogal type ('leaping over', or 'direct crossing' - people who have spontaneous insights and are experience-oriented) and the chikcherpa (spelling ?) who are naturally enlightened instantly or even from birth.

I'm a bit torn here. I'd have to say I am a combination of all three... though that might require a lengthy explanation.

And unfortunately, that is all I have time for at the moment... the yard work beckons... Today I am the arborist.

[DreadFish]

I am curious what you think of the "zen" approach to "Buddhism" and reality. Depending on how acquainted you are with zen anyway.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by DreadFish

I am curious what you think of the "zen" approach to "Buddhism" and reality. Depending on how acquainted you are with zen anyway.

Sadly, I have never been particularly smitten by zen or it's followers. Much ado about nothing...