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  #191  
Old 01-30-2011, 07:59 PM
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Kathryn the health of the Egyptian improved? These protests were kindled by the stagnant economy which left half of its 80 million under the poverty line of 2 dollars a day.
Yes, in the thirty years or so that Egypt has been receiving significant aid from the US and other Western countries, the health of it's people has improved dramatically. I just posted an article highlighting the increase in child health in Egypt due largely to US aid. Here are some other facts:

During the 1980s, diarrhea and associated dehydration accounted for 67 percent of the deaths among infants and children. Concern about this health problem prompted the government to establish the National Control of Diarrheal Diseases Project (NCDDP) in 1982. With funds provided by the United States Agency for International Development, NCDDP initiated a program to educate health care workers and families about oral-rehydration therapy. NCDDP's efforts helped reduce diarrhea-related deaths by 60 percent between 1983 and 1988.

Egypt - HEALTH AND WELFARE

In 2008 the WORLD BANK named Egypt as the Top Economic Reform country in the Middle East for the third year on a row.

In 2005, the Egyptian government cut corporate tax rates in half, from 40 percent of profits to 20 percent. Personal tax rates were reduced at the same time, moving from a flat rate to a progressive system.

Over five hundred free press newspapers, journals and magazines are available in Egypt. Over half the newspapers are privately owned.

The literacy rate for female youths rose from 67 percent in 1990 to 81 percent in 2005, and is expected to be more than 95 percent in 2015.

Egypt is home to 30 percent of the Arab world's bloggers.

Egypt was one of the top ten best performing countries in the most recent Global Hunger Index.

The Global Hunger Index (GHI), which calculates worldwide hunger and malnutrition rates, estimates that between 1990 and 2008, Egypt’s GHI vulnerability decreased by more than 50 percent, despite rising food prices in the country. Only six out of 70 countries included in the study have achieved this feat.

In Fiscal Year 2008, bilateral trade between Egypt and the U.S. was close to $7 billion, more than 350 percent higher than its 2004 levels.

Egypt is the fourth largest export market for the U.S. in the Middle East and North Africa, representing nearly 9 percent of its exports to the region.

In May 2009, the U.S. and Egypt signed a plan for a strategic partnership, which aims to further promote economic cooperation between the two countries.

Since 2002/03, private U.S. direct investment has increased from $277.5 million to more than $6 billion in 2007/08, a 23-fold increase.

Egypt boasts a highly skilled workforce, with 265,000 university graduates each year.

The Egyptian economy grew 5.1 percent in 2009-10, beating forecasts by international economists and the International Monetary Fund.

By the end of 2007, the total number of Egyptian mobile subscribers reached 30 million.

As of November 2009, there were 53.6 million mobile telephone subscribers in Egypt.

Egypt was one of the first countries in Africa to launch third generation (3G) Mobile Services in 2007.

5,000 Egyptian small businesses will benefit from $70 million in agriculture project grants.

Egypt’s IT sector has attracted over $8 billion in investments over the last three years.

The Information and Communication Technology (ICT) sector has maintained a growth rate of about twenty percent over the past three years.

As of December 2009, there were over 3,400 ICT companies in Egypt employing more than 180,000 people.

Egypt tops the list of Facebook users in the Arab world and ranks 23rd globally.

The total number of Internet users in Egypt has grown to over 16 million in 2009, up from just 300,000 in 1999.

In 2009, Egypt ranked second in the Arab world in terms of registered Twitter users.

Egyptian blogs account for about 30.7 percent of total blogs in the Arab world.

Education is free through university level in Egypt.
  • With 18 million enrolled students, Egypt has the largest overall education system in the Middle East and North Africa.
  • The Education Act of 1953 made education free through university and compulsory from ages six to 15.
  • As part of its campaign against illiteracy, the Egyptian government has established 3,000 schools since 1993 for girls who are unlikely to attend formal schooling. The schools provide vocational training and lessons on building income-generating businesses, in addition to traditional classes in Arabic, science and arithmetic.
Egypt’s anti-AIDS program is one of the most successful in the Middle East and Africa.
  • Less than one percent of Egypt’s population is estimated to be HIV-positive.
  • Egypt’s National AIDS Program works to keep the prevalence rate low through awareness, peer education, counseling, and testing services.
  • In 2006, Cairo hosted a three-day UNAIDS-supported workshop on HIV/AIDS and drug use in the region. The workshop included representatives of governments, non-governmental organizations, and research programs from throughout the Arab world.
One Hundred Facts about Egypt | Modern Egypt Info

Now I'm not saying that Egypt is a paradise, but let's put things into perspective. Compared to the rest of that region, they ain't doin' so badly.

Not that the Egyptian people should not demand a better, more democratic government. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the huge strides they've made forward in the past thirty years (with and without Western aid) has instigated this hunger for democracy, more say in their government, more reforms centered around empowering the people, and more demands for transparency from their own government.

More power to them. They've come a long way - and the West has encouraged them every step of the way.
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  #192  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:03 PM
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You're using those videos again

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Originally Posted by xatz
I wouldn't say Mubarak is "beloved" more like "tolerated" or appreciated. But at any rate when you're country (Israel) is surronded by countries hostile to you, it is good to have some allies and try to keep them. I am not saying it's right, it's just how things are from Israel's perspective. The last thing they want is a hostile Egypt.
Ok, but I'm talking about the U.S's perspective. The perspective that authorizes the billions in aid and the reason why the President has refused to condemn Mubarak's use of lethal force against peaceful protesters when he was so loud in condemnation against Ben Ali.

The state departments official response is that Egypt is a 'stabilizing force' and compared to his fellow rulers, Mubarak was indeed their dream come true.
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  #193  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:05 PM
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The reason i bought that up was simple,Qutb and his vision of Islamism is at the core of the MB,once you read Qutb you are reminded of Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf,i see no good in it probably because IMO there isn't any unless of course you are a revivalist Muslim but for this jahili they don't smell good.
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  #194  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:11 PM
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You're using those videos again
I won't use them this time

Quote:
Ok, but I'm talking about the U.S's perspective. The perspective that authorizes the billions in aid and the reason why the President has refused to condemn Mubarak's use of lethal force against peaceful protesters when he was so loud in condemnation against Ben Ali.

The state departments official response is that Egypt is a 'stabilizing force' and compared to his fellow rulers, Mubarak was indeed their dream come true.
Like I said before, it's all a balancing act. If he condemns Mubarak, Arab leaders will lose a lot faith in Obama/America. I imagine Obama especially does not want to lose the confidence and trust of his other major ally in the region, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. The President would only support the protest if he had a better idea of the outcome and if he knew it wouldn't lead to instability in Egypt as well as other Arab countries. Obama probably figured it was ok if Tunisian gov't fell because they are not as key as the Egyptian one.

However, that said, I do think that the US should stop sending the aid.
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  #195  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:19 PM
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Now I'm not saying that Egypt is a paradise, but let's put things into perspective. Compared to the rest of that region, they ain't doin' so badly.
Well that depends on the Egyptian you ask right?

"Living standards in Egypt are low by international standards, and have declined consistently since 1990. According to United Nations figures, some 20 to 30 percent of the population live below the poverty line. Despite widespread poverty, however, uneven development has led to the emergence of an affluent class that controls most of the country's wealth and enjoys an elevated standard of living that includes shopping at centers that feature the best imported goods."

I applaud the fact that there are many systems of health care and education available to Egyptians, but these services have been declining in quality over these past two decades

"The economic reforms launched by the Egyptian government in the early 1990s have been double-edged, severely affecting the lower classes and threatening to further erode popular support for the government. Both the rural and urban poor have suffered from the long decline in the quality of social services provided to Egyptians. A lack of adequate resources for schools and hospitals has meant that these services have declined in quality over the years."

"As a result of high inflation, which, at its peak, reached 28.5 percent in 1989, the middle and lower classes have seen their living standards erode since the 1980s. The problem has been compounded by the government's reduction of subsidies on basic foodstuffs and certain budget controls on public services since 1991."

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/e...ND-WEALTH.html

I find this last part to be highly relevant because of the fact that this was the major catalyst for these protests and the fact that just prior to these protests, Mubarak announced several cutbacks on several subsidies greatly angering the public.

Quote:
More power to them. They've come a long way - and the West has encouraged them every step of the way.
Ok no problem, I agree there have been several lucrative bilateral economic deals that have strengthened Egypt's economy. But we must also look at the direct aid given to Egypt by the U.S.

"The United States has given Egypt an average of $2 billion annually since 1979, much of it military aid, according to the Congressional Research Service. The combined total makes Egypt the second largest recipient of U.S. aid after Israel."

"In 2010, $1.3 billion went to strengthen Egyptian forces versus $250 million in economic aid. Another $1.9 million went for training meant to bolster long-term U.S.-Egyptian military cooperation. Egypt also receives hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of excess military hardware annually from the Pentagon."

Factbox: Most U.S. aid to Egypt goes to military | Reuters

Looking at the various contracts between Egypt and the U.S it is clear that the major markers were all military contracts that furthered Mubarak's own corrupt rule. I have posted a study which concluded that the vast majority of the military aid went directly to the police who are despised in Egypt.

Let alone the fact that we have, under this administration, reduced the amount of aid given to programs aimed at civil reform and democracy advocates and that a majority of companies that we did work with were disbanded because they were seen as a threat by Mubarak.

So you can see why the Egyptians might view the U.S has being much more interested in its foreign policy particularly and the security of Mubarak's regime?

That is why I believe America should not withhold the rhetoric it didn't hesitate to use in Cairo before and did use in Tunisia. It is an unprecedented opportunity to reach out to the people and one that will not present itself again.
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  #196  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:22 PM
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The reason i bought that up was simple,Qutb and his vision of Islamism is at the core of the MB,once you read Qutb you are reminded of Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf,i see no good in it probably because IMO there isn't any unless of course you are a revivalist Muslim but for this jahili they don't smell good.
Again England, you are not being relevant and the fact of the matter is that the MB has renounced violence.

I mean you didn't offer a single comment on their current goals, all domestic and all worthy. Why did they not catch your attention? Didn't fit a particular soundbite? Because I didn't see a specific declaration of war against Israel amongst them did you?

Why must you continually go after the radicalized version of the MB sixty years ago, borne out of completely different situation, than the current regime which denounces terrorism?

Please, be relevant. The MB has taken many, many steps to show that its history is just that. History and has had little role in its policies in Egypt.
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  #197  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:25 PM
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I agree that the US government should support the Egyptian people in their demands for governmental reform.

But surely you see that this is extremely tricky at this moment, diplomatically speaking.

I would think the US should lay low, and let the dust settle. I seem to recall a very strident demand from many Arabs that the US quit interfering with their governments - so let's start now.

But...Egypt still wants foreign aid, right?
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  #198  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by xatz
I won't use them this time
Hah, I'm just teasing I just don't have headphones at the moment so I can't listen to them.

Quote:
Like I said before, it's all a balancing act. If he condemns Mubarak, Arab leaders will lose a lot faith in Obama/America. I imagine Obama especially does not want to lose the confidence and trust of his other major ally in the region, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. The President would only support the protest if he had a better idea of the outcome and if he knew it wouldn't lead to instability in Egypt as well as other Arab countries. Obama probably figured it was ok if Tunisian gov't fell because they are not as key as the Egyptian one.

However, that said, I do think that the US should stop sending the aid.
I agree, but I think if Obama chooses to make these decisions he should never make such false promises as he did in Cairo and he did in his state of the union address.

I also agree that he should stop aid, but that would be much worse than actually voicing support for the protests.
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  #199  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:27 PM
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But...Egypt still wants foreign aid, right?
If the protests succeed then we will known the moment they either scrap their relations with Israel or keep them.
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  #200  
Old 01-30-2011, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Abibi View Post
Again England, you are not being relevant and the fact of the matter is that the MB has renounced violence.

Correct they did,publicly at least

I mean you didn't offer a single comment on their current goals, all domestic and all worthy. Why did they not catch your attention? Didn't fit a particular soundbite? Because I didn't see a specific declaration of war against Israel amongst them did you?

Well i think they would fail at the first one,however there are some of note

Why must you continually go after the radicalized version of the MB sixty years ago, borne out of completely different situation, than the current regime which denounces terrorism?

What does "we are continuing on the path of Qutb" mean to you

Please, be relevant. The MB has taken many, many steps to show that its history is just that. History and has had little role in its policies in Egypt.
I agree,its history and the MB have taken steps to give itself a freindly face i think though that the Egyptian people have had enough of what they have to offer,especially the youth so although this is an outstanding opportunity for the MB i think they will only be the Bridesmaid.
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