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  #1  
Old 09-08-2012, 10:08 AM
Surya Deva Offline
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Default Does quantum physics prove......

1) The human mind creates the physical or empirical reality
2) The one true sun-god exists

Somebody made these claims, and I am not a quantum physicist, but my major is philosophy of science so my own understanding of quantum physics knows these claims to be NOT true, but I would like to get the expert opinions of actual physicists(or anybody with a background in quantum physics) posting on his board on what the claimant possibly means by these assertions and and how does quantum physics prove these claims?

Last edited by Surya Deva; 09-08-2012 at 10:11 AM..
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2012, 10:17 AM
Shuddhasattva Offline
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Negative, captain.

Our current understanding of quantum mechanics does provide some evidence to support a panpsychist, or similar, position, at least in certain interpretations. But not proof - not even compelling evidence.

As for #2... Pleroma strikes again?
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2012, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
As for #2... Pleroma strikes again?
Lol, so he has a reputation here then!


From what I understand about quantum mechanics though various interpretations do exist the consciousness measurement collapse of the wavefunction theory is the one that is generally accepted in physics, also known as the copenhagen interpretation which was formulated by scientists like Bohr and Heisenberg. I understand many physicists that were initially associated with the Copenhagen interpretation later disassociated themselves from it because they did not like the obvious implications of it that there is no external reality without a conscious observer.

The other theories have not been proven to be very successful. Most hidden variable theories have been falsified and multiple world theory seems to be pure theoretical and has no empirical evidence to back it up.

So this leaves us with the consciousness measurement collapse of the wavefunction theory or Bohm's theories, both of which suggest that consciousness exists as an either an actual substance in the universe or is inseparable with the universe.

But why is it not considered proven?

Last edited by Surya Deva; 09-08-2012 at 11:12 AM..
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  #4  
Old 09-08-2012, 01:32 PM
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If you're interested in quantum theory and consciousness you should probably have a look at Penrose and Hameroff.
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  #5  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by stephenw View Post
If you're interested in quantum theory and consciousness you should probably have a look at Penrose and Hameroff.
The Penrose and Hameroff model is considered to be pseudo-scientific by the mainstream scientific community.

It was a desperate attempt to explain awareness using microtubules and orchestered objective reduction mumbo jumbo which is a pseudo-scientific theory and it fails to explain anything. Brain itself is created by a human mind and how can a brain explain the processes of the human mind which is its product.
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  #6  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
1) The human mind creates the physical or empirical reality
2) The one true sun-god exists

Somebody made these claims, and I am not a quantum physicist, but my major is philosophy of science so my own understanding of quantum physics knows these claims to be NOT true, but I would like to get the expert opinions of actual physicists(or anybody with a background in quantum physics) posting on his board on what the claimant possibly means by these assertions and and how does quantum physics prove these claims?
Time to go and read how things have changed in the philosophy of science. Your knowledge is out dated.

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  #7  
Old 09-10-2012, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post
The Penrose and Hameroff model is considered to be pseudo-scientific by the mainstream scientific community.
All I see here is an appeal to authority. I would be surprised if your scientific credentials surpassed either those of Penrose of Hameroff.



Quote:
It was a desperate attempt
In what sense was it desperate?

Quote:
to explain awareness using microtubules and orchestered objective reduction mumbo jumbo which is a pseudo-scientific theory and it fails to explain anything.
It raises interesting questions


Quote:
Brain itself is created by a human mind and how can a brain explain the processes of the human mind which is its product.
How do you believe human minds create brain?
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  #8  
Old 09-10-2012, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenw View Post
All I see here is an appeal to authority. I would be surprised if your scientific credentials surpassed either those of Penrose of Hameroff.
Sir Roger Penrose is a mathematical physicist and his arguments are based on Gödel's theorems and its purely mathematical and I only accept his mathematical arguments not his theories on quantum consciousness which has been rubbished by the scientific community and Stuart Hameroff deals with anaesthesia.

Quote:
In what sense was it desperate?
A desperate attempt to explain the hard problem of consciousness of qualia in terms of platonic values embedded at planck scale. Which is complete BS.

Quote:
It raises interesting questions
Penrose's works implies only one thing that is strong AI is impossible and that human thought process is not mechanical and the human mind is more than a machine.

Quote:
How do you believe human minds create brain?
Bernard D'Espagnat - "What we call empirical reality is only a state of mind" the neurons of the brain too fall under empiricism and hence that too is creation of the human mind.
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  #9  
Old 09-10-2012, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Pleroma View Post

A desperate attempt to explain the hard problem of consciousness of qualia in terms of platonic values embedded at planck scale..
I see the attempt, but I fail to see the desperation





Quote:
Which is complete BS.
I can wholly accept reasoned disagreement with any proposal. But I see no justification for this.



Quote:
Penrose's works implies only one thing that is strong AI is impossible and that human thought process is not mechanical and the human mind is more than a machine
Why is that not interesting?



Quote:
Bernard D'Espagnat - "What we call empirical reality is only a state of mind" the neurons of the brain too fall under empiricism and hence that too is creation of the human mind
If science is no more than the creation of the human mind, why do you attribute value to it?
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  #10  
Old 09-10-2012, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by stephenw View Post
I see the attempt, but I fail to see the desperation
A desperate attempt to keep an objective picture of the world while experiments often stressing the fact that nature is fuzzy and we cannot have a concrete model of reality.

Quote:
I can wholly accept reasoned disagreement with any proposal. But I see no justification for this.
If there is no way to falsify it then its not science.



Quote:
Why is that not interesting?
I never said its not interesting.



Quote:
If science is no more than the creation of the human mind, why do you attribute value to it?
This doesn't mean that we don't need science. The main point is as Bernard says,

“The message would be that the purpose of life is not to eat and drink, watch television and so on. Consuming is not the aim of life. Earning as much money as one can is not the real purpose of life. There is a superior entity, a divinity, le divin as we say in French that is worth thinking about, as are our feelings of wholeness, respect and love, if we can. A society in which these feelings are widespread would be more reasonable than the society the West presently lives in.”

Science is not all there is, there is much to know.
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