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  #51  
Old 10-07-2011, 02:05 PM
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RE: end time religious salvation

Like global warming, people have different ideas about end time religious salvation.
[To me it's the 'end time of all badness on earth' before Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth]

Technology has not proven to save us from earth's woes.

And I think it is not irrational or unrealistic to consider a 'religious salvation'.
If we step back, so to speak, and look at the BIG picture we can see that even the 'powers-that-be' [UN] can see a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world. With backing the UN can be strengthened to turn on the troublesome religious world. The world's false religious sector has run afoul playing false to God and his Word.

1st Thess [5vs2,3] mentions a sort of final signal or trigger that is a precursor to the great tribulation that happens before Jesus ushers in global peace on earth toward men of goodwill.
Whenever 'they' [powers-that-be at that time] are saying, 'Peace and Safety' or 'Peace and Security' then instant destruction will come. [destruction of the wicked. Psalm 92v7]

So, although Jesus action comes by surprise [like a thief] does not mean if will not happen.
World-wide false religion thinks she sits secure as some sort of religious 'queen' that will never see mourning or sorrow [Rev 18v7] yet the political kings [17v2;18v8] or political rulers will surprisingly turn on her.

Besides the world's religious sector disturbing the peace, perhaps even a bad economy will make the wealth of the religious world attractive for political taking.
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  #52  
Old 10-08-2011, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by URAVIP2ME View Post
work in progress-

RE: end time religious salvation

Like global warming, people have different ideas about end time religious salvation.
[To me it's the 'end time of all badness on earth' before Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth]
Unfortunately, when it comes to evidence on climate change, it appears that most forecasts have understated the problem -- the projections of temperatures, CO2 levels, ocean acidification, sea level rise, invariably turn out to be more rapid than the projections of the climate modellers and the reports gathered in the IPCC Reports. Sure, there are different ideas, but most of the official government-sponsored climate research is too conservative in their forecasts, while the deniers are totally out to lunch!

Re: salvation -- There are as many different interpretations as there are scriptural verses on the end times. A modern movement formed around one verse in Thessalonians, popularized by Rapture interpretations, and then a load of poorly written fiction and even worse movies (Left Behind) that have left many evangelicals with the notion that they will disappear and be taken up into the clouds as all hell breaks loose here on Earth.

I consider this to be potentially the most dangerous theology, because it creates an impression that the present day Christian, who is sure of his salvation, can disregard everything that is happening now -- like the famines and wars that are likely to to ensue because of degradation of the environment. I think this is a big part of the reason why so many evangelicals care so little about the threat of climate change and other environment issues -- they don't think they will have to be around to suffer through the damage that they have played a part in creating.

Quote:
Technology has not proven to save us from earth's woes.
I guess we can agree on that one. But blind faith in technological progress is the other religion that encourages complacency, and appears to be the strongest religion among most the unbelievers and mildly religious.

Quote:
And I think it is not irrational or unrealistic to consider a 'religious salvation'.
I never said it was irrational, and many religions that believe in an end times are among the most prepared to deal with calamities that will occur in the coming years or decades -- the Mormons teach their followers that they must keep a year's supply of food...so they among the few preparing for disruptions in our complex economic system. Others that emphasize self-sufficiency, like the Amish and Mennonites will be better able to deal with hardship than 99% of city-dwellers.

Also, belief in salvation gives hope that the trials are only temporary and will lead to a renewed golden age. That could be helpful to many people in coming decades who are facing hard times that they have not been prepared to deal with. Prior to the relatively consistent weather of the Holocene Epoch, small bands of hunter/gatherers had to deal with extreme climate and weather changes, and find a way to survive for thousands of years.....future generations will face the same challenge, and may have the advantage of modern technology on their side -- but they may have to re-learn a lot of things that are ancestors understood.

Quote:
If we step back, so to speak, and look at the BIG picture we can see that even the 'powers-that-be' [UN] can see a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world. With backing the UN can be strengthened to turn on the troublesome religious world. The world's false religious sector has run afoul playing false to God and his Word.
I don't see the UN as ever being the source of power that end-time believers and extreme nationalists built it up as. It is mostly a powerless organization that is dependent on the U.S. financially and its home. Many of the charities run by the U.N. - like UNHCR, are the most effective at dealing with famine and other issues in the poorest regions of the World. I'm not sure if turning the UN into the great boogeyman even existed before Hal Lindsey, and a few other prophecy writers on the far right got started 40 years ago. Previously, the Vatican and the Catholic Church were interpreted as The Beast, The Great Harlot, The False Prophet, The Antichrist, and all of the other bad things that Satan was supposed to unleash in the final days. The Neoconservative prophecy writers like Lindsay, seem to have shifted a lot of their interpretations to suit the times -- I understand that now, the focus is on Islam as being the enemy, whereas back when he wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth," the KIng of the North was supposed to be the Soviet Union....which doesn't even exist today of course...and that's the big problem when prophecy writers get to re-interpret and re-package their prophecies to suit the news of the day!

Quote:
1st Thess [5vs2,3] mentions a sort of final signal or trigger that is a precursor to the great tribulation that happens before Jesus ushers in global peace on earth toward men of goodwill.
Whenever 'they' [powers-that-be at that time] are saying, 'Peace and Safety' or 'Peace and Security' then instant destruction will come. [destruction of the wicked. Psalm 92v7]

So, although Jesus action comes by surprise [like a thief] does not mean if will not happen.
World-wide false religion thinks she sits secure as some sort of religious 'queen' that will never see mourning or sorrow [Rev 18v7] yet the political kings [17v2;18v8] or political rulers will surprisingly turn on her.

Besides the world's religious sector disturbing the peace, perhaps even a bad economy will make the wealth of the religious world attractive for political taking.
The problem with interpreting prophecies as events that are about to happen, is that any time of trouble can appear to be the last days. How many times over the last 2000 years has Matthew 24 inspired some doomsday cult to start up? The first problem is that the prophecies in the NT were originally intended for their time. The Beast with the 666 was code form for the Roman Emperor Nero; Jesus tells his disciples in Mark 9:1 that he will return before the last of them have died....a few decades later, the Christian churches had to make the transition from an end time cult that only had time for proselytizing, to take on the more mundane tasks of how to organize a unified church throughout the Empire with a hierarchical leadership.
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  #53  
Old 10-09-2011, 01:47 AM
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Are humans in the process of destroying Earth, or are we merely altering it? Is this a natural process, or is something wrong? What opportunities are there, and what are the difficulties or problems to overcome? What are its implications to you?
I wouldn't say human beings so much as our prevailing social and economic institutions (don't want to incite unnecessary ecological guilt complexes). It's not like human nature is so stuck in its way that it cannot create better adapted institutions and I have faith that environmental pressures will push us to do so in the future. Also it's not the earth that's being destroyed but rather just the ecosystem (the small stuff moving around on the surface). The earth will be fine regardless of whether the ecosystem is totally destroyed. Perhaps it would generate a new ecosystem over time.

I tend to agree with social ecology, though.

"The notion that man must dominate nature emerges directly from the domination of man by man… But it was not until organic community relations … dissolved into market relationships that the planet itself was reduced to a resource for exploitation. This centuries-long tendency finds its most exacerbating development in modern capitalism. Owing to its inherently competitive nature, bourgeois society not only pits humans against each other, it also pits the mass of humanity against the natural world. Just as men are converted into commodities, so every aspect of nature is converted into a commodity, a resource to be manufactured and merchandised wantonly. … The plundering of the human spirit by the market place is paralleled by the plundering of the earth by capital."

Bookchin, Murray. Post-Scarcity Anarchism. Oakland: AK Press, 2004, p. 24-5.
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Last edited by Straw Dog; 10-09-2011 at 01:51 AM..
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  #54  
Old 10-10-2011, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by work in progress View Post
Unfortunately, when it comes to evidence on climate change, it appears that most forecasts have understated the problem -- the projections of temperatures, CO2 levels, ocean acidification, sea level rise, invariably turn out to be more rapid than the projections of the climate modellers and the reports gathered in the IPCC Reports. Sure, there are different ideas, but most of the official government-sponsored climate research is too conservative in their forecasts, while the deniers are totally out to lunch!
Re: salvation -- There are as many different interpretations as there are scriptural verses on the end times. A modern movement formed around one verse in Thessalonians, popularized by Rapture interpretations, and then a load of poorly written fiction and even worse movies (Left Behind) that have left many evangelicals with the notion that they will disappear and be taken up into the clouds as all hell breaks loose here on Earth.
I consider this to be potentially the most dangerous theology, because it creates an impression that the present day Christian, who is sure of his salvation, can disregard everything that is happening now -- like the famines and wars that are likely to to ensue because of degradation of the environment. I think this is a big part of the reason why so many evangelicals care so little about the threat of climate change and other environment issues -- they don't think they will have to be around to suffer through the damage that they have played a part in creating.
I guess we can agree on that one. But blind faith in technological progress is the other religion that encourages complacency, and appears to be the strongest religion among most the unbelievers and mildly religious.
I never said it was irrational, and many religions that believe in an end times are among the most prepared to deal with calamities that will occur in the coming years or decades -- the Mormons teach their followers that they must keep a year's supply of food...so they among the few preparing for disruptions in our complex economic system. Others that emphasize self-sufficiency, like the Amish and Mennonites will be better able to deal with hardship than 99% of city-dwellers.
Also, belief in salvation gives hope that the trials are only temporary and will lead to a renewed golden age. That could be helpful to many people in coming decades who are facing hard times that they have not been prepared to deal with. Prior to the relatively consistent weather of the Holocene Epoch, small bands of hunter/gatherers had to deal with extreme climate and weather changes, and find a way to survive for thousands of years.....future generations will face the same challenge, and may have the advantage of modern technology on their side -- but they may have to re-learn a lot of things that are ancestors understood.
I don't see the UN as ever being the source of power that end-time believers and extreme nationalists built it up as. It is mostly a powerless organization that is dependent on the U.S. financially and its home. Many of the charities run by the U.N. - like UNHCR, are the most effective at dealing with famine and other issues in the poorest regions of the World. I'm not sure if turning the UN into the great boogeyman even existed before Hal Lindsey, and a few other prophecy writers on the far right got started 40 years ago. Previously, the Vatican and the Catholic Church were interpreted as The Beast, The Great Harlot, The False Prophet, The Antichrist, and all of the other bad things that Satan was supposed to unleash in the final days. The Neoconservative prophecy writers like Lindsay, seem to have shifted a lot of their interpretations to suit the times -- I understand that now, the focus is on Islam as being the enemy, whereas back when he wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth," the KIng of the North was supposed to be the Soviet Union....which doesn't even exist today of course...and that's the big problem when prophecy writers get to re-interpret and re-package their prophecies to suit the news of the day!
The problem with interpreting prophecies as events that are about to happen, is that any time of trouble can appear to be the last days. How many times over the last 2000 years has Matthew 24 inspired some doomsday cult to start up? The first problem is that the prophecies in the NT were originally intended for their time. The Beast with the 666 was code form for the Roman Emperor Nero; Jesus tells his disciples in Mark 9:1 that he will return before the last of them have died....a few decades later, the Christian churches had to make the transition from an end time cult that only had time for proselytizing, to take on the more mundane tasks of how to organize a unified church throughout the Empire with a hierarchical leadership.
Thank for your reply.
You make good points and observations.

I'll start with Proverbs [4v18] because it mentions spiritual light [Bible knowledge] would progressively grow lighter and lighter with the passing of time.

Daniel pin pointed that progressive time frame would culminate with increased biblical knowledge [education] - Daniel 12vs4,9.

Wrong guesses did Not make Scripture wrong, but the guessers needed to hit the books [66 Bible books] again, and see how they could shed more spiritual light on their existing knowledge.

A lot of guessers didn't use accurate Bible knowledge but their own guesses.

Mark [13vs32-37] we are cautioned to keep on the watch, or be watchful.
Be alert to Bible prophecy.

Jesus explained to his first century followers that the kingdom of God was Not for their time by his illustration or analogy at Luke [19 vs11-15]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 both have a minor and a major fulfillment.
The minor was fulfilled in the year 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem.
The major is for our day. -Matt 24v21; Rev 7v14

Also, what is unique for our day is Matthew [24v14] that the good news of God's kingdom would be a witness to all nations.
Rapid Bible translation into many languages has now sped up that process.

It is only with backing that the UN can be strengthened.
Religions major role is the union of church and state to crown and dethrone kings. People talk of personal salvation or judgment. All religious organizations are accountable to God and will face his judgment of them.

On the surface 'feed the poor' looks oh so good, but the wave of godless conduct affects religions standing or position. Such as in tax exemptions now being called into question, and because of clergy misconduct in sex scandles, etc. Terrorist's extremes have religion as its base.

All of this has created feelings and attitudes of an anti-religious atmosphere in the UN. False religions meddling in the world's affairs has brought such religion negative or bad attention to the point that she is, so to speak, in the UN's radar.

Original ancient Babylon known for its false religious practices experienced sudden destruction. Today Babylonish teachings are mixed with Scripture and often the clergy teach it as part and parcel with Scripture promoting tradition outside of Scripture as Scripture. So, the forecast is the same for modern Babylon which is a greater religious Babylon or world-wide Babylon the Great.
[Rev. chapters 17,18]

1st Thess [5vs2,3] is clear Jesus comes as a thief. A thief does not announce his arrival does he ? So, although it would seem unlikely for the UN to prove to be God's 'long arm of the law' against the world false religious sector,
just like ancient Babylon felt secure, her surprising end came hard and swift,
so it should be no real surprise to those that keep on the watch spiritually that God will adversely judge the world's false religions inside and outside of Christendom.

In closing I would like to add that it is really science with its doom-and-gloom Doom's Day Clock with its hands set close to striking the dark midnight hour.
Whereas, Luke wrote [21v28] to lift up one's head [optimistic] because deliverance [salvation] is getting near. Saved or delivered from the badness on earth to live under Jesus righteous messianic [1000-year] reign over earth.
-Micah 4vs3,4
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  #55  
Old 09-13-2012, 12:12 PM
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yes
Its an important question which is asked to everyone by themselves are they are part of it.I think yes we are part of destroying the earth in many means.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:57 AM
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yes
Its an important question which is asked to everyone by themselves are they are part of it.I think yes we are part of destroying the earth in many means.
Good point ^above^ because Not just earth's ecological ruin, but spiritual and moral ruin.

God's Word [Bible] promises that God WILL bring to ruin those ruining the earth.
- Rev. 11 v 18 B

Mankind's history has proven that man can not successfully direct his step.
That is why mankind needs God to step in.
God can and he will because God will not allow his earth to be brought to ruin.
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  #57  
Old 11-20-2012, 10:43 AM
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One day i was seeing some ants going inside and coming out from the hole in the wall, some were carring the parts of leaves, some were carring some food, some were doing some another works, some seems to be kissing each others, And then i saw some more ants in another corner, they were also going somewhere and some were coming from somewhere, than i thought why don't they join the ants of that hole.

Finally i decided nothing and said let them do what they want, I don't care.

May "God" be thinking about we peoples like this.

Anyhow, ants are smart enough but asfaras, for the human processes i think they are cutting the same branch of the tree on which they are sitting.
God is thinking about such things. We have free will and have chosen to ignore it. Hence, part of why I dislike atheism, it's like turning our back on all these natural religions.

Ants will probably outlast us.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Christian who says God will punish humanity for its sins against nature, I'd have to say it seems more plausible that God wouldn't need to do anything to punish us, just let karma do its work. We cut down enough trees, the air becomes toxic. We're already poisoning our food with chemical additives, so between the two of them, it'll probably be plants and burrowing animals after humans.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:50 PM
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At the flood when the earth ruptured and jettisoned the fountains of the deep onto the surface of the earth God said man's thoughts were evil continuously.

2 TIMOTHY 3 : 1-4 "There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, witout love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of good, treacherous, rash, conceited"

Does that sound like evil continually? God said he was grieved he had created us before the flood. Did God make a mistake with his creation? Or was he grieved because he created us his image to show the Universe what he was like and they were suffering as all creation is now? Since Lucifer had made accusations against God and God (1 TIM 6:16 "who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see) could only show his qualities by creating us in his image.

EPHESIANS 3:10 "His intent was that now, through the church (the Greek word is called out ones), the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms."
Now the verse goes on to say this was accomplished through Jesus who came in flesh to complete what mankind wasn't able to do our own. Jesus jump started the process though and we are told in 2 COR 5:18 that we are now to carry it on.

This 6000 years on earth was a testing ground for Lucifer, who said he had a better plan than God. Instead of a better way, we using Satan's principles are bringing the entire earth to an end. At the flood men's minds were evil continually. A study was done in France on the power of thought and when they had the group concentrate on negative thoughts they were able to change the decay rate of a material. It has recently been discovered that the decay rate of all materials has started to increase. Before the flood the earth was heated and watered from below. On the 6th day God said everything was very good. Radio-active materials could not have been on the surface of the earth. They cause cancer and were used to create the atomic bomb. Inside the core their decay wold have heated the fountains of the deep watering and heating the entire earth. If man's thoughts do alter the decay rate as has been proven we are now experiencing what happened prior to the flood. The fountains of the deep are now on the surface of the earth so this time the final explosion will be much greater. The last time steam ruptured the earth (212 degrees) this time it will be when the solid materials are turned to gas. Our earth now is like a nuclear plant in meltdown which once started is irreversable.

2 PETER 3 : 7 "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire" (lava)
2PETER 3 : 10 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire" 3:12 "That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat." God created the earth in 6 days and gave Satan 6000 years to show he had a better way. Good against evil, the law of love against the doctrine of greed. The doctrine of greed has completely destroyed our planet.

Last edited by Ron Hackel; 11-20-2012 at 04:53 PM..
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  #59  
Old 11-21-2012, 06:06 AM
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Ron Hackel-

Please notice that Peter was Not speaking of earth's destruction.
First of all: the earth abides forever.
- Ecc. 1 v 4 B; Psalms 78 v 69; 93 v 1; 96 v 10; 104 v 5; 1st Chron. 16 v 30; Isaiah 45 v 18

Not a literal destruction of the heavens and earth. In context the 'heavens' and 'earth' to which Peter is in reference to is present-day corrupt human government rule and ungodly human society .
-Destruction of the ungodly according to 2nd Peter 3 v 7 B.
Not destruction of earth but please notice destruction of sinners [ Isaiah 13 v 9 ]
The wicked sinners that are beyond reform or repentance.- 2nd Peter 3 v 9 B; Psalm 92 v 7
The wicked will be no more on earth, but the upright remain- Proverbs 2 vs 21,22; 10 v 30; 21 v 18
Just as Jesus promised the humble meek will inherit the earth.- Psalm 37 vs 11,29,38

It's Not the 'periodic table' that Peter was talking about, but the bad 'elements' of Satan's system of things that will be exposed as being totally lacking in fire-resistant qualities.
- [ 2nd Peter 3 v 10; Col. 2 v 8; Eph. 2 v 2; Malachi 4 v 1]
Satan's 'world of woe' [ Rev. 12 vs 9,12 ] will be laid bare exposing it as being against God and his kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus as King of God's kingdom.
That symbolic fire or heat [ 2nd Peter 3 v 12 ] shows Satan's system is worthy of destruction.
-Isaiah 26 v 21; Zechariah 14 v 13

Jesus fulfills God's promise [ 2nd Peter 3 v 13] God promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed. Blessed with healing or curing of the nations under Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth.
-Genesis 12 v 3; 22 v 18; Revelation 22 v 2; 21 vs 4,5; Psalm 72 vs 8, 12-14

Not earth being brought to ruin, but as Revelation [11 v 18 B] mentions God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth, not earth being ruined or destroyed.
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  #60  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:28 AM
haribol Offline
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Humans are the only mindless beings born here and they have been shamelessly destroying everything that can sustain life. We are triggering desertification of this beautiful planet and our consumerism is drowning us. Everything that can make our life livelier and the earth more beautiful is caving in.
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