Burn Christian books? (Moses, Torah, gospel, tradition, translation)

[*Paul*]

Guys, is this quote true or is it a fabrication / LIE? I've looked through the Babylonian Talmud and can't find any record of it, certainly not where this guy says it is:

"Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, especially the New Testament."

—

The Jewish Talmud,
(Shabbath 116a)

[*Paul*]

Actually guys, i've found it myself, in a footnote:

Come and hear: The blank spaces15 and the Books of the Minim16 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them.

15. Jast. s.v. [H] translates, the gospels, though observing that here it is understood as blanks. V. Herford, R.T., 'Christianity in the Talmud', p. 155 n.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbat...6.html#116a_15

[NoahideHiker]

The first thing we must understand is that we must follow the #1 rule of theology which is; when seeking knowledge about any faith we are beholden to learn about it from those within the faith. The Talmud is not a writting that can just be picked up and read by anyone and correctly interpreted.

Come and Hear, as far as I know, is not a Jewish source and they do seem to rely heavily on the writtings of R. Travers Herford, who as far as I can tell is neither Jewish nor taught by Jews.

Now, if we look at the margin of the page on Sabbath 116a on the left you will see "Dilling discussion of highlighted text". Follow that link to here:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt03.html#T142

Where it says:
The Talmud Gittin 45b reference states that "a scroll of the Law which has been written by a min should be burnt." Distilled hate is the theme. [See Sabbath 116a]


If we look at Gittin 45b we see commentary that discusses the treatment of Torah scrolls which is consistant with what Sabbath 116a says:

Perhaps it can be bought to be stored away. R. Nahman said: We have it on tradition that a scroll of the Law which has been written by a Min3 should be burnt, and one written by a heathen should be stored away. One that is found in the possession of a Min should be stored away; one that is found in the possession of a heathen according to some should be stored away and according to others may be read.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_45.html#T140The great Jewish sage Rashi translates "Books of the Minim" as 'Hebrew Bibles written by men in the service of idolatry.'. So it would seem that it is concerning copies of the Jewish bible that are written by non Jews only and not so much with the New Testement. And while this can seem like a very harsh decree and practice on the surface it is simply a call for the preservation of Jewish writings. A side by side comparison of the christian bible and the Jewish bible shows that christian scholars have made translational mistakes as well as down right changed the origanal text.

The transmition of the Jewish text from scroll to scroll is so exacting that if there is but a single mistake it must be destriod and redone. So much more than with a scroll not written by the Jews?

[NoahideHiker]

Oh, and here's a great link for you. If you ever have a question about Judaism or the writtings you can go to this site and chat with an orthodox rabbi 24/6 and they can answer any questions...

http://www.askmoses.com/

[*Paul*]

Thats great, thanks a lot Noahhide. I thought something was up there. It was a newsletter I recieved from a strange group that caused me to ask the question and it gave a quote from some guy that concerned me:


"The New Testament is a lying, hateful, harmful book, ultimately responsible for the deaths of six million Jews in World War II."

—

Abe Foxman, head of the
Jewish ADL, in Never Again?
The Threat of the New Anti-Semitism

It was forwaded to me as I am a supporter of Israel as in their place as a nation in the middle east and believe it has prophetic significance. The article seems to be from a paranoid group. I post the whole thing if you are interested, but i'd like you to know that it is not typical of Christian Fundamentalism but part of a fringe conspiracy group by the looks of it.

[NoahideHiker]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Thats great, thanks a lot Noahhide. I thought something was up there. It was a newsletter I recieved from a strange group that caused me to ask the question and it gave a quote from some guy that concerned me:


"The New Testament is a lying, hateful, harmful book, ultimately responsible for the deaths of six million Jews in World War II."

—

Abe Foxman, head of the
Jewish ADL, in Never Again?
The Threat of the New Anti-Semitism

It was forwaded to me as I am a supporter of Israel as in their place as a nation in the middle east and believe it has prophetic significance. The article seems to be from a paranoid group. I post the whole thing if you are interested, but i'd like you to know that it is not typical of Christian Fundamentalism but part of a fringe conspiracy group by the looks of it.

That is horrible that they would say that. The old church did some bad things but the past is the past. There is a new breed of Christians rising up within it's own church. They are called Christian Zionists. They want to learn about Judaism for knowledge's sake. Not to convert them. They recognize the Jew's covenant with G-d and they keep their hands off them. More importantly they support Israel. Bereishit (Gen.) 12 says that those who bless Israel shall be blessed and those that curse Israel shall be cursed. I'm sure you, and othjer Gentiles like us, will be blessed.

Here is a great lecture that Rabbi Tovia Singer did about the Talmud and how things within it have been used against the Jews. Rabbi Singer used to do a great deal of anti-missionary work but now he is a bridge between the Jews and the Zionist Christians.

http://outreachjudaism.org/download....n%20Talmud.mp3

[Jonathan Rex]

Originally Posted by NoahideHiker

The transmition of the Jewish text from scroll to scroll is so exacting that if there is but a single mistake it must be destriod and redone. So much more than with a scroll not written by the Jews?

Then why has the name of the LORD been replaced with HaShem in the Tanakh? If this process is held in such high esteem, why would anybody use a variant name for God? If that is not the name that Isaiah used then that is not the name that should be read when reading Isaiah. (In my opinion)

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Rex

Then why has the name of the LORD been replaced with HaShem in the Tanakh? If this process is held in such high esteem, why would anybody use a variant name for God? If that is not the name that Isaiah used then that is not the name that should be read when reading Isaiah. (In my opinion)

Mod Hat On

This is in the Judaism DIR forum. You are not Jewish and hence are a guest here and, as such, you may not make these kinds of antagonistic comments. You may ask genuine questions and discuss the answers here but YOU MAY NOT DEBATE

James

[NoahideHiker]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

Mod Hat On
This is in the Judaism DIR forum. You are not Jewish and hence are a guest here and, as such, you may not make these kinds of antagonistic comments. You may ask genuine questions and discuss the answers here but YOU MAY NOT DEBATE

James

I feel his question is in line. It's a valid question.

Answer: Torah scrolls are in Hebrew, not English. So where in, say, an English version such as the Artscroll Tanach may say Hashem it shouldn't say this in the Hebrew Torah scrolls. Generally out of respect Orthodox Jews do not write the name of G-d so that no desecration can come to it. Outside of Judaism it's considered silly but to those within the religion it is very important.

While translations of the Hebrew will vary in wording (but not in meaning) the Torah scrolls remain unchanged but for 9 letters out of the whole which changes no meaning of the text. The differences are such as with English words like color and colour. To think that these scrolls were written in so many different regions of the world and yet they remain so unchanged is amazing in itself.