What is the Jewish understanding of salvation?

[punkdbass]

The Christian concept of salvation makes no sense to me, Im just curious to learn about the Jewish understanding of the concept. I know in the Bible salvation often literally means being saved from one's enemies. I've always intuitively taken salvation to mean the "fullness" and peace one receives and needs from having God in their life.

Secondly, I've been debating with one of my Jehova's Witness friends for a while now, and I think I've finally figured out one of the root causes of so many of our differences: she believes there are theological reasons for "death," that the purpose or reason for death is punishment for our sins. So basically, she believes since we are all sinners, thus we all must die, and one achieves salvation by overcoming death(obtaining eternal life), and does so when the Resurrection happens and all are judged. And I believe that despite our sins, we can still be righteous, for the righteous are by definition sinners(Proverbs 24:16). I know the story of Adam and Eve does say that man was first immortal and death only entered as punishment for Adam's sins(but I've simply never viewed death as having or needed theological purposes), does Judaism have theological reasons/purposes for the role of "death" ?

[Jayhawker Soule]

From what do I need to be saved?

[Rakhel]

upon searching you query, I happened upon an interesting article on Jews and Salvation.
How Does a Jew Attain Salvation?

[Chisti]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

From what do I need to be saved?

Sin, I guess.

[punkdbass]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

From what do I need to be saved?

well from my view, unfulfillment? unhappiness? A lack of purpose and meaning? the evil inclination(sin)? I dont know, that's why I created this thread lol. Im just curious how salvation plays a role in Jewish tradition, and what exactly the concept of that "salvation" is.

And yea Rakhel I've read that article a few times before, it supports my beliefs pretty well -- that despite our sins we can still be righteous, its entirely up to us. The Bible records many people as being righteous despite their sins, heck, even the NT explicitly records several sinners as being righteous -- Jesus's father Joseph, and John's father the High priest.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not a big fan of 'salvation' as a Jewish value.

[jazzymom]

I don't think salvation is a Jewish value. When I hear the word it brings to mind Christianity. I believe that all have a place in the world to come and one does not need to be Jewish.

We put the emphasis on the here and now, not what happens after we die.

[Levite]

Originally Posted by punkdbass

The Christian concept of salvation makes no sense to me, Im just curious to learn about the Jewish understanding of the concept. I know in the Bible salvation often literally means being saved from one's enemies. I've always intuitively taken salvation to mean the "fullness" and peace one receives and needs from having God in their life.

Secondly, I've been debating with one of my Jehova's Witness friends for a while now, and I think I've finally figured out one of the root causes of so many of our differences: she believes there are theological reasons for "death," that the purpose or reason for death is punishment for our sins. So basically, she believes since we are all sinners, thus we all must die, and one achieves salvation by overcoming death(obtaining eternal life), and does so when the Resurrection happens and all are judged. And I believe that despite our sins, we can still be righteous, for the righteous are by definition sinners(Proverbs 24:16). I know the story of Adam and Eve does say that man was first immortal and death only entered as punishment for Adam's sins(but I've simply never viewed death as having or needed theological purposes), does Judaism have theological reasons/purposes for the role of "death" ?

That is one interpretation of the Adam and Eve story-- not the only one. But in either case, we are not punished for Adam's sins, nor do we require salvation from sin.

When the text speaks of salvation, it either means literal rescue from danger, or it means a shaking awake of our conscience-- when God "rescues" us from sinners and wrongdoers, sometimes that doesn't mean from what evils they wish to do to us, but from the negative influence of their company, from their potential seduction of us. In such cases, it may be that God lends us strength to listen to our conscience under temptation, or maybe just causes us to pay closer heed to the "better angels" of our nature. Not that He changes our minds, of course, but just that He may give us strength if we need it and want it, or He may help us listen to our own hearts.

But we simply do not have the Christian association between sin and mortal death. We understand traditionally that mortal death is the consequence of mortal life, of living in this world and on this plane of existence. And while there is sometimes thought, mystically, to be an "upper" Eden, a paradise not on this plane of existence, that is not the Eden in which Adam and Eve lived: that was an earthly paradise, and they were made from the mortal earth, and therefore by definition they could not have been immortal at any point in their existences. And so their mortality is not the result of sin, and it is not a curse that we inherit: the "curse" of Adam is merely a description of life in the world.

And more importantly, we cannot believe as Christians do because for us, sin is not a condition, it is an action. No one is a sinner, in the sense Christians mean: when we say that all people are sinners, we don't understand that as an inherent condition, but that all people make mistakes, and all people are capable of doing things for the wrong reasons, and all people are capable of choosing to do wrong sometimes. That just goes along with being mortal and having free will. And God does not hold that against us-- how could He, since that's how He created us?

On the contrary, there is a reason why on the holidays, we recite God's Thirteen Attributes:
ה' ה' אל רחום וחנון ארך אפים ורב חסד ואמת נצר חסד לאלפים נשא עון ופשע וחטאה ונקה
Hashem Hashem el rachum vechanun erech apayim v'rav chesed v'emet notzer chesed l'alafim noseh avon va-fesha ve-chatah ve-nakeih.
"YHVH, YHVH, a God full of compassion and graciousness: slow to become angry, great in lovingkindness and faithfulness, giving forth lovingkindness to the thousandth remove, absolving sins-of-guilt and sins-of-defiance and sins-of-fault, to acquit them."

We repeat this because we understand that God does not hold sin against us any more than we hold on to sins. The moment we let the sinful action go, and cease doing it, and begin to do the process of teshuvah, God makes space for that and supports us. And when we have done our teshuvah, God wipes away the sin as though it had never been. Always. Without fail. For those who do teshuvah, God has infinite mercy, compassion, and grace. And it is never too late to do teshuvah for what one has done. And we also understand that God simply does not expect perfection of us, or of anything He created. Only He is perfect, and it would be unreasonable of Him to expect anything else to measure up to Himself.

Traditionally, we basically agree that we're all created equally with the potential for eternality of the soul. The differences mostly exist in how that eternality of the soul is expressed, what consequences there may be after death for those who leave unresolved business in this life, and how extensive or lengthy the afterlife cycle of compensation or correction of such unresolved business might be before we get to The World To Come. But death itself? No, that's just the way the world works.

[punkdbass]

Originally Posted by Levite

When the text speaks of salvation, it either means literal rescue from danger, or it means a shaking awake of our conscience-- when God "rescues" us from sinners and wrongdoers, sometimes that doesn't mean from what evils they wish to do to us, but from the negative influence of their company, from their potential seduction of us. In such cases, it may be that God lends us strength to listen to our conscience under temptation, or maybe just causes us to pay closer heed to the "better angels" of our nature. Not that He changes our minds, of course, but just that He may give us strength if we need it and want it, or He may help us listen to our own hearts.

Hmm, I've never thought of interpreting those verses that way, makes sense to me! And this would support my current views on the concept of salvation -- of helping us to live full, meaningful, happy, lives and to resist the evil inclination.

Originally Posted by Levite

And more importantly, we cannot believe as Christians do because for us, sin is not a condition, it is an action. No one is a sinner, in the sense Christians mean: when we say that all people are sinners, we don't understand that as an inherent condition, but that all people make mistakes, and all people are capable of doing things for the wrong reasons, and all people are capable of choosing to do wrong sometimes. That just goes along with being mortal and having free will. And God does not hold that against us-- how could He, since that's how He created us?

I agree, I've always believed that God created us this way, with free will and the ability to sin. Although I dont agree with Christianity's view of original sin, Im not sure I fully agree with Judaism's view on sin ether. Yes, in general sin is an act, not a condition. But yet, one can not deny or downplay the reality of temptation, and the power it has. Judaism claims we always have the choice to overcome temptation, to do the right thing, because we have free will. And at a basic level I agree with this, but I think it can get to a point where it is near impossible to say no, to overcome temptation, when one performs a certain sin enough times. When one begins to travel down the downward spiral path of a certain sin, and repeatedly commits the sin, they slowly begin to give up a little of their free will each time they do the sin. Every subsequent time they are confronted with the choice to do the sin or overcome it, it becomes a little harder to say no, a little harder to resist it's urge, until eventually it reaches the point where it is nearly impossible to say no, and the sin has become an addiction, a very part or condition of the person. To me, this is the meaning of the story when God hardens Pharoh's heart -- God simply gave him the consequence for his sins. Every time Pharoah sinned, a little of his free will was given up and it slowly became harder and harder for him to overcome his sins, to say no and do the right thing. Of course repentance is still possible, I wont deny that.. but I just think when a person performs a certain sin enough times, they begin to give up a lot of their free will to resist it, and it can get to the point where the sinful habit starts to become a part of the person, or as Christians might consider it: a condition, a part of their nature. Perhaps you'll feel differently, but in my own experience of life and observance of others, this is how I best understand the concept of sin. Alcoholics, gamblers, extremely selfish people, pedophiles, mass murderers, extremely angry people, etc dont freely choose to do what they do(although I think I would agree that a certain level, however small it may be, of free will does indeed exist for their actions), rather their negative actions seem to have became a very real part of who they are as a person. Would you disagree?

And yes I agree that God's mercy trumps His judgment, and the moment we let our sins go and begin teshuvah, God wipes away the sin.

[Levite]

Originally Posted by punkdbass

I agree, I've always believed that God created us this way, with free will and the ability to sin. Although I dont agree with Christianity's view of original sin, Im not sure I fully agree with Judaism's view on sin ether. Yes, in general sin is an act, not a condition. But yet, one can not deny or downplay the reality of temptation, and the power it has. Judaism claims we always have the choice to overcome temptation, to do the right thing, because we have free will. And at a basic level I agree with this, but I think it can get to a point where it is near impossible to say no, to overcome temptation, when one performs a certain sin enough times. When one begins to travel down the downward spiral path of a certain sin, and repeatedly commits the sin, they slowly begin to give up a little of their free will each time they do the sin. Every subsequent time they are confronted with the choice to do the sin or overcome it, it becomes a little harder to say no, a little harder to resist it's urge, until eventually it reaches the point where it is nearly impossible to say no, and the sin has become an addiction, a very part or condition of the person.

I do not believe that we ever give up our free will. I think there are ways in which we can impair of decisory capacities-- effectively inhibiting the full freedom of our choices-- but unless there is a physical or psychological illness literally preventing us from making certain choices, ultimately, I think we always have free will. To what degree we avail ourselves of it...that's a different story. A person who is addicted to something-- be it drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, whatever-- and knows they are addicted, knows that they have come to rely on the object of addiction, and does not seek help or try to kick the addiction or the unhealthy reliance has made a choice.

But ultimately, even an habitual sinner-- someone who transgresses the same commandment or commandments over and over-- is still a sinner in the sense that they are individuals committing sins, not inherently sinful individuals. They didn't start off as sinners, and they don't have to finish up as sinners: their condition is inherently transitory, dependent only on their willingness or unwillingness to do teshuvah.

To me, this is the meaning of the story when God hardens Pharoh's heart -- God simply gave him the consequence for his sins. Every time Pharoah sinned, a little of his free will was given up and it slowly became harder and harder for him to overcome his sins, to say no and do the right thing.

Pharaoh I think was a unique case: an object lesson. And I think in his case, God actually lent him the strength of will to keep making the choices he desired to make in his deepest heart, despite the terror of the plagues that would have made any reasonable human stop and let the people go, simply out of fear. Rather than giving up his free will, I think he actually was granted, if you will, a special extension of it, or an extra helping.

Of course repentance is still possible, I wont deny that.. but I just think when a person performs a certain sin enough times, they begin to give up a lot of their free will to resist it, and it can get to the point where the sinful habit starts to become a part of the person, or as Christians might consider it: a condition, a part of their nature. Perhaps you'll feel differently, but in my own experience of life and observance of others, this is how I best understand the concept of sin. Alcoholics, gamblers, extremely selfish people, pedophiles, mass murderers, extremely angry people, etc dont freely choose to do what they do(although I think I would agree that a certain level, however small it may be, of free will does indeed exist for their actions), rather their negative actions seem to have became a very real part of who they are as a person. Would you disagree?.

I agree that sometimes, people who are gripped by physical addiction or psychological illness are not responsible for their actions-- their free will is effectively impaired by their condition. But to a great degree, the impairment of their free will is dependent upon the treatability of their condition, and their commensurate willingness to seek treatment and follow it through. If a person is the victim of an illness without cure or reliable treatment, we do not hold them responsible for their actions. And if their condition is treatable, but they do not know about that option, or it is unavailable to them, we do not hold them responsible for their actions until they are made aware of the option of treatment and it is made available to them. But if they know their condition is treatable, and that treatment is available to them, and they refuse it, or fail to comply with it in such a way that their condition relapses, then we do hold them responsible for their actions.

So much you know. But even then, it is the actions that are transgressions. It is never the person who is inherently transgressive in quality, no matter what they are aware of, no matter how many times they sin, no matter their condition.

That's the difference. Christian theology would have us believe that sin is a condition we can be born into, and that people, indeed, are sinners from birth. But for us, no matter how often one sins, or what kind of sins one commits, it is the transgressions that are sinful, not the person themselves.