Jewish Saviour?

[evolved yet?]

Christians often point to the old testament and say Jesus was prophesied, is this true? Do the christians simply interpret some passages differently? Or are the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament simply differ so much that it is not in the official Jewish doctrine.

[Tarheeler]

To put it simply, Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies that describe the messiah. The only way to reconcile the idea that he did with Jewish scripture is through the Christian Bible. It's basically a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They use the Tanakh as the base of he scripture, but their interpretation and perspective are very different. There are many areas where Jewish and Christian theology conflict; the identity of the messiah is just one of them.

[punkdbass]

When I read the Tanakh, I do not see Jesus prophesied whatsoever, although I do think the NT portrays Jesus's life and teachings as running parallel to the Tanakh if that makes sense.

The idea of an individual messiah ruler just doesnt make sense to me. When I read the Tanakh I see a beautiful picture painted of a future time of peace and man kind reaching its highest potential -- but that such a time will only come about through the collective effort of all peoples, hence why it takes an entire community of people to collectively fulfill the laws of Torah, for it is impossible for one man to do so(certain laws only apply to men, woman, priests, farmers, etc)

I realize that the idea of an individual messiah is definitely an idea accepted in Judaism, but even the Jewish views on an individual messiah don't make sense to me. Part of the reason we reject Jesus is because he didnt fulfill the messianic prophecies in his life time, rather he died.. but honestly I dont think any one person could fulfill all the messianic prophecies in their lifetime, the idea just seems ridiculous to me. In the Tanakh it is the Jews who ask God for a human king, and God basically reproves them saying that they have no need for a human king, rather serving God alone is enough to merit righteousness. And in my mind, I just don't see a need for any "king" other than God Himself. Perhaps there will be an individual messiah, but humanity must prove themselves worthy of redemption first, and that's the more important and relevant topic to think about IMO.

[Levite]

Originally Posted by evolved yet?

Christians often point to the old testament and say Jesus was prophesied, is this true? Do the christians simply interpret some passages differently? Or are the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament simply differ so much that it is not in the official Jewish doctrine.

The Christological interpretations of prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures are eisegetic. That is, they are retrojections into the text by early Christians, to read Jesus back into the texts of the Tanakh.

Jews simply do not interpret those passages in the same way, and never have. By the understandings of Jewish messianism, Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies associated with the messiah. Also, many of the actions or beliefs Christianity attributes to Jesus' teachings, or the teachings of his chief students and followers, are fundamentally incompatible with Judaism, which for us means that it is all the more impossible for Jesus to have been the messiah, since of course the messiah would never teach us things which are fundamentally incompatible with Judaism.

Many of the premises upon which Jesus' role as messiah are also simply absent from the Jewish world view. Your thread title, for example, asks about a Jewish saviour, but the term itself is meaningless, because Jews do not believe in Original Sin, and thus do not believe in the necessity of being saved from it. We believe that everyone is responsible only for their own sins, and no intercessionaries are needed: if a person has sinned, and then truly repents for that sin (the process is called teshuvah, and involves not only regretting one's sin, but making any and all reparations to injured parties, accepting any and all consequences or punishments for the transgression that may be required by law, resolving not to sin again, and confessing one's sin to God, etc.), we believe that God will always forgive that person.

And of course, that's not even getting into the theological problems of trinitarianism and Jesus as part of God, which is deeply transgressive of basic Jewish theology.

[TheKnight]

Originally Posted by evolved yet?

Christians often point to the old testament and say Jesus was prophesied, is this true? Do the christians simply interpret some passages differently? Or are the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament simply differ so much that it is not in the official Jewish doctrine.

As a former Christian I can understand what happens when Christians read the Old Testament. Usually, they are taught from a young age that Jesus is the savior, usually based on passages from the New Testament. If they read the OT (many, many Christians only focus on sections, not on the entire thing as a way to preserve and transmit the teachings of a people), they look at it Christologically. To the point that it seems like Jesus is all over the Old Testament. From Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac, to the blood the Israelites used on their doorposts, to Isaiah 9, to Isaiah 53, etc.

A Christological understanding of the Old Testament is, perhaps, one of the most difficult things to overcome because usually Christians spend a great amount of time being told about and hearing things from and about the Old Testament which simply are not accurate for the ideas that the Old Testament is presenting.

The few times I get into debates with friends of mine about this topic, I try to make it clear that no one becomes a Christian by approaching the Old Testament as a non-believer, and believing afterwards.

When approaching the Old Testament, if you truly wish to grasp the message it teaches, you have to read it in the context of the text itself. This is the hardest part for Christians because they read the OT in the context of the NT.

For me, it wasn't until I heard lectures from Rabbi Tovia Singer that it sort of clicked in my head.

Ultimately, I think that the actual teachings found in the Tanakh are more beautiful and beneficial than the traditional Christological interpretation for both Christians and Jews.

[Tarheeler]

Originally Posted by TheKnight

As a former Christian I can understand what happens when Christians read the Old Testament. Usually, they are taught from a young age that Jesus is the savior, usually based on passages from the New Testament. If they read the OT (many, many Christians only focus on sections, not on the entire thing as a way to preserve and transmit the teachings of a people), they look at it Christologically. To the point that it seems like Jesus is all over the Old Testament. From Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac, to the blood the Israelites used on their doorposts, to Isaiah 9, to Isaiah 53, etc.

A Christological understanding of the Old Testament is, perhaps, one of the most difficult things to overcome because usually Christians spend a great amount of time being told about and hearing things from and about the Old Testament which simply are not accurate for the ideas that the Old Testament is presenting.

The few times I get into debates with friends of mine about this topic, I try to make it clear that no one becomes a Christian by approaching the Old Testament as a non-believer, and believing afterwards.

When approaching the Old Testament, if you truly wish to grasp the message it teaches, you have to read it in the context of the text itself. This is the hardest part for Christians because they read the OT in the context of the NT.

For me, it wasn't until I heard lectures from Rabbi Tovia Singer that it sort of clicked in my head.

Ultimately, I think that the actual teachings found in the Tanakh are more beautiful and beneficial than the traditional Christological interpretation for both Christians and Jews.

I couldn't agree with this more.

Rereading the Torah after a long absence from Christianity sealed it for me; without those ideas coloring everything I read, there wasn't any way I could reconcile Christian theology with the words on those pages.

[Reverend Richard]

Originally Posted by evolved yet?

Christians often point to the old testament and say Jesus was prophesied, is this true? Do the christians simply interpret some passages differently? Or are the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament simply differ so much that it is not in the official Jewish doctrine.

If you don't mind my commenting, as a former conservative Christian...

As others have already mentioned, Christians are brought up being taught that Jesus is the messiah that was promised in the Old Testament, and of course if you are a good Christian you believe that.

It wasn't until I left "traditional" Christianity that I began to read commentaries from Jewish scholars on why Jesus was, and still is rejected as messiah. After I got the whole story, I understood why, too. In fact, from the Jewish perspective, it seems to me the whole premise of Jesus as the messiah is a "force fit". The New Testament narrative performs theological gymnastics to make it appear that he was.

In the Christian tradition, Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, but from a Jewish point-of-view, it seems to me he probably wasn't a very good one.

[Flankerl]

It should be noted that this is still the Jewish DIR and therefore members outside of Judaism are only allowed to ask questions.

From my POV there isnt much wrong with what you wrote but christians could get upset about it since you arent a jew and write something in return and so forth.

[Reverend Richard]

Originally Posted by Flankerl

It should be noted that this is still the Jewish DIR and therefore members outside of Judaism are only allowed to ask questions.

From my POV there isnt much wrong with what you wrote but christians could get upset about it since you arent a jew and write something in return and so forth.

Understood. My apologies if I have offended...

[SimoneQuinn]

Originally Posted by TheKnight

As a former Christian I can understand what happens when Christians read the Old Testament. Usually, they are taught from a young age that Jesus is the savior, usually based on passages from the New Testament. If they read the OT (many, many Christians only focus on sections, not on the entire thing as a way to preserve and transmit the teachings of a people), they look at it Christologically. To the point that it seems like Jesus is all over the Old Testament. From Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac, to the blood the Israelites used on their doorposts, to Isaiah 9, to Isaiah 53, etc.

A Christological understanding of the Old Testament is, perhaps, one of the most difficult things to overcome because usually Christians spend a great amount of time being told about and hearing things from and about the Old Testament which simply are not accurate for the ideas that the Old Testament is presenting.

The few times I get into debates with friends of mine about this topic, I try to make it clear that no one becomes a Christian by approaching the Old Testament as a non-believer, and believing afterwards.

When approaching the Old Testament, if you truly wish to grasp the message it teaches, you have to read it in the context of the text itself. This is the hardest part for Christians because they read the OT in the context of the NT.

For me, it wasn't until I heard lectures from Rabbi Tovia Singer that it sort of clicked in my head.

Ultimately, I think that the actual teachings found in the Tanakh are more beautiful and beneficial than the traditional Christological interpretation for both Christians and Jews.

This is excellent, thank you. Much the same for me. I also never knew or understood any of the contradictions, I did not realize there were half omissions and so many changes. I did not even know the order of the books was changed to make the 'old testament'. I thought it was an exact replica of what the Jewish people had. I believed what I was told, as I sat there in church. Now it is difficult to believe that I could never see any of it, but I truly did not see it whatsoever. Once I started actually looking for myself, looking for the truth, whatever that may have been, it started and became a landslide.

I had the same with Singer- towards the beginning I tried listening to him and he made me extremely uncomfortable. I wasn't quite ready to hear what he was saying. Then later on in my journey I went back to listen to him again, and he spoke right to my heart, felt safe and comforting and I knew it as truth.