Not Hinduism?

[Tathagata]

Originally Posted by Madhuri

I am wondering, why is Jainism not considered a Hindu philosophy?
I admit to not knowing much about Jainism. But from what I can gather, it's very Vedic! There are so many of the same concepts. So why is it considered a completely different religion? What are the main differences that cause this religious separation?

Well, first of all, having similar tenets don't necessitate that two different religions be considered the same. Most religions believe in souls, God, and an afterlife, but that doesn't mean they should stop being considered different religions.

Secondly, Jainism is considered a separate religion because it IS a separate religion with a different founder, different core doctrines, and different practices.

Not to mention, I'd argue that Jainism is not all that similar to Hinduism. Jainism believes in one eternal, uncreated universe whereas Hinduism believes in many finite, created universes. The concepts of karma are quite different. Jainism believes karma is an actual substance of impurity based on a persons actions, whereas Hinduism doesn't. There's more, but that's just a couple differences.


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[Madhuri]

Thanks Tathagata, really helpful! I'll have to read more on this religion.

[nameless]

Originally Posted by Jai-Jinendra

I should specify, Hinduism may think that all paths lead to the same Goal, But I dont belive that. Sorry for the confusion.

not all paths exactly, in fact there is different paths to same goal. I respect your view on this, anyway. Personally i believe, though these paths appear to be different, essentially they are all same when put into practice.

Originally Posted by Jai-Jinendra

We dont accept the Veda's simply because Mahavir attained maximum peace and liberation seperate from the Veda's. If Mahavir used the Veda's to get to Moksha, we would too. But he brought back Jain Dharma, which is different from Vedic Dharma. He brought the Jain Agams and the Jain Nirjaras, and the Jain Tapas and we follow those. Why? Because if Mahavira attained peace from material existence, then we should follow his teachings so that we can get to were he is. The Veda's are just something that we dont accept, its basically the same reason why Buddhist dont follow the Veda's, because Buddha found peace outside of the Veda's.

It is said there was no beginning for vedas, means vedas are not those scriptures and books, they are simply the universal and eternal principles the enlightened holy people realizes. And vedas itself says, scriptures wont benefit much for one's spiritual journey. So Mahavir did not relied on hindu scriptures does not mean his path is different from that of Hinduism . The early Rishis and munies did not relied on any scriptures, their path too was the meditation, still they are not outside to Hinduism.
I think it requires some different core principles or philosophy contradictions to state that jainism is different from Hinduism.

The history of Jainism cannot be dated, there are instances in vedas where it got influenced by jainists.
In the Rig -veda there are clear references to Rishabhdev, the 1st Tirthankar, and to Aristanemi, the 22nd Tirthankar. The Yajur-veda also mentions the names of three Tirthankars, viz. Rishabhdev, Ajitanath and Aristanemi.

When it is said that Jainism is Hinduism, kindly dont take it as hijacking jainism. Both are simply labels for the same thing, which is not necessary.

Jai Mahavir

[Arav]

Originally Posted by nameless

It is said there was no beginning for vedas, means vedas are not those scriptures and books, they are simply the universal and eternal principles the enlightened holy people realizes. And vedas itself says, scriptures wont benefit much for one's spiritual journey. So Mahavir did not relied on hindu scriptures does not mean his path is different from that of Hinduism . The early Rishis and munies did not relied on any scriptures, their path too was the meditation, still they are not outside to Hinduism.
I think it requires some different core principles or philosophy contradictions to state that jainism is different from Hinduism.

The history of Jainism cannot be dated, there are instances in vedas where it got influenced by jainists.
In the Rig -veda there are clear references to Rishabhdev, the 1st Tirthankar, and to Aristanemi, the 22nd Tirthankar. The Yajur-veda also mentions the names of three Tirthankars, viz. Rishabhdev, Ajitanath and Aristanemi.

When it is said that Jainism is Hinduism, kindly dont take it as hijacking jainism. Both are simply labels for the same thing, which is not necessary.

Jai Mahavir

I do too, respect your view on this, but I still feel uneasy every comming to acceptance of it. It seems like it might be disrespectful to Mahavir to place his Jain Dharma along with Hinduism. He re-founded a Dharma that is unlike Hinduism in many ways and I just dont like saying that Jainism is just an extension of Hinduism. Because there are things about Jainism that are just unlike Hinduism. Though there are many similairities, it is the placement of those similairities with the differences in the unique places that they are in that make Jainism different from Hinduism. I just dont feel they are the same.

[ByeRaagi Rayaprolu]

this healthy debate reminds me of the "inconceivable simultaneous nondifference-n-difference"..
overwhelmed by the mutual respect and regard the dharmicists share with each other, i pray all our sages, siddhas and Acharyas and buddhas to bind us all to the Truth, with the yoke of Love.
a prayer for myself and for my country and for my world.
may Gurus,siddhas,rishis,Bodhisattvas & Jinas make your children ascetic-rulers
may sikhs, rajputs and kshatriyas make your children obedient warriors for Dharma
may Jains and Vaishyas make your children philanthropic enterprenuers & employers.

may your children seek only Truth and Knowledge living at their teacher's feet.
may they become Householders only to live up to,and to sponsor, their sva-Dharma.
may they experiment with Truth as the veteran champions of their sva-Dharma
may they ripen in to the ascetic-teachers and preachers for all the seekers gen-next

Then i will die to serve & follow your children, expecting nothing in return.
I will learn from your children by serving them, which wud be my gr8est fortune.
I cannot afford the gr8 minds of my country go waste their lives in petty survival tasks
or daily chores like housekeeping, even a layman like me can do these.
treat me with compassion, even if not with love.
treat me as worthy n useful, even if not as an equal.
try n touch my heart with ur words n deeds, even if not my body with yours.
Then why wud i hate to pass on my social status to my own children ??

ur untouchable Hindu[="Indian"]servant.
longlive svadharma

[Arav]

Originally Posted by ByeRaagi Rayaprolu

this healthy debate reminds me of the "inconceivable simultaneous nondifference-n-difference"..
overwhelmed by the mutual respect and regard the dharmicists share with each other, i pray all our sages, siddhas and Acharyas and buddhas to bind us all to the Truth, with the yoke of Love.
a prayer for myself and for my country and for my world.
may Gurus,siddhas,rishis,Bodhisattvas & Jinas make your children ascetic-rulers
may sikhs, rajputs and kshatriyas make your children obedient warriors for Dharma
may Jains and Vaishyas make your children philanthropic enterprenuers & employers.

may your children seek only Truth and Knowledge living at their teacher's feet.
may they become Householders only to live up to,and to sponsor, their sva-Dharma.
may they experiment with Truth as the veteran champions of their sva-Dharma
may they ripen in to the ascetic-teachers and preachers for all the seekers gen-next

Then i will die to serve & follow your children, expecting nothing in return.
I will learn from your children by serving them, which wud be my gr8est fortune.
I cannot afford the gr8 minds of my country go waste their lives in petty survival tasks
or daily chores like housekeeping, even a layman like me can do these.
treat me with compassion, even if not with love.
treat me as worthy n useful, even if not as an equal.
try n touch my heart with ur words n deeds, even if not my body with yours.
Then why wud i hate to pass on my social status to my own children ??

ur untouchable Hindu[="Indian"]servant.
longlive svadharma

Thank you for this ByeRaagi! It is a beautiful prayer and I like the fact that your seeing this in the view of simultaeous non-difference and difference. Because that is really what all Dharmic Paths are I guess. They are one and different. It has been said by some Terapanth Jains that the Religion that teaches about letting go of Attachment and Aversion is the real religion. I guess that makes Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism all true in that sense!

[religion99]

Jainism deny existence of Almighty Omnipotent Omnipresent Creator God ( Brahma ) in no uncertain term. Jainism deny existence of Conductor of Universe Affairs Vishnu. Jainism deny existence of Universe Destroyer Shiv. Hence Jainism is not included under Hinduism.

[Riverwolf]

What about the Tirukkural? I think I read somewhere that some Jains accept this text, despite its Hindu origins.

[religion99]

I have read Tirukkural. Tirukkural is not Jain text. None of the Jain Scholars accept it as Jain Text.

[nameless]

Originally Posted by religion99

Jainism deny existence of Almighty Omnipotent Omnipresent Creator God ( Brahma ) in no uncertain term. Jainism deny existence of Conductor of Universe Affairs Vishnu. Jainism deny existence of Universe Destroyer Shiv.

Only some hindus believes so, you wont find these characters in any upanishads or vedas, may be rarely. Not matching with certain schools of hinduism does not mean it is outside of umbrella of hinduism, since hinduism is not a single faith.