Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet pbuh) (ritual, moral, Kingdom, sin)

[summia]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Thanks for your honest answer Summia. In fundamentalist Christianity apostasy is very serious too but in this life we simply oppose their teachings and have nothing to do with them.

Why do you think that the penalty has to be executed now, in this life? Why does allah not wait until the day of judgement when the person is going to suffer in hell for his apostasy anyway?

It is in the koran allah the merciful allah the beneficient. I'm not suggesting that you can just go and change the rules "allah and his apostle" have put in place just to please others, but imagine if you had to execute this act of "justice" on someone.. could you do it?

As I said I do appreciate your honest answer and I do understand that allegience to allah comes before any other earthly friendship but I can't comprehend how this and other punishments (amputation of limbs) can actually be carried out even if you do believe them.

I wont goad you on the subject or keep asking about it if you would prefer I didn't, I was simply browsing the hadith when I came across this and wanted to ask someone.

coz if penalty has not executed now in this life will get the religion of Islam as an airport in which people will come and leave and come and leave and so on….
Islam has it’s value, coz it is counted among major religions, if everyone waits for judgment to be suffer such Hypocrite in hell then the purpose of Believers die (And that purpose is “To call the people towards true path that God Almighty has mentioned in His last revelation, it’s not changed as a challenging truth”)
Note here paul! I hav used word “call” not the word “enforcement” it is prohibited in Islam. But is someone came to accept Islam and then after some days he go away, such is really wrong action, coz religion is not as changing the clothes…

Yeah! And Allah will surely punish that person in hereafter but it don’t mean lo leave the Hypocrite free in this life….
And also there is second way to treat the Hypocrite “To disgrace him and show all over the world that the man is Hypocrite” But Allah Almighty don’t wish to disgrace his creature, rather he (The Hypocrite) must die….right!!!!

Look Look paul!
Religion don’t means only sweetness. Religion means “Balanced way” coz if religion will be sooooo sweet and only sweet then why religion????
Therefore, Allah almighty not only merciful allah the beneficient but also fierce in punishment.
Now, why our parents gets fireced when we disobey them? We can’t say that our parents are not merciful, infact they are trying to save our life….

[*Paul*]

[quote]

Originally Posted by summia

coz if penalty has not executed now in this life will get the religion of Islam as an airport in which people will come and leave and come and leave and so on….

This to me creates problems. Wouldn't it be more glorifying to allah if people were free to leave Islam but chose not to because it is the truth and they have found allah and the way of righteousness.
If on the other hand people who depart from Islam must fear for their lives how will the world ever know if a muslim is a muslim because he loves allah and has found the truth or because he is afraid not to?

Islam has it’s value, coz it is counted among major religions, if everyone waits for judgment to be suffer such Hypocrite in hell then the purpose of Believers die (And that purpose is “To call the people towards true path that God Almighty has mentioned in His last revelation, it’s not changed as a challenging truth”)

Yes to call people to faith, but how is the execution of hypocrites doing this? What this actually achieves is keeping people in the faith by fear, leaving a hypocrite to live out his short life would not affect the muslims duty to call people to faith.

But is someone came to accept Islam and then after some days he go away, such is really wrong action, coz religion is not as changing the clothes…

It is wrong, I completely agree with you but it is better to have people who are muslims because they want to be rather than because they are scared not to be, because then their hearts are not right with their god and he knows this anyhow.

Yeah! And Allah will surely punish that person in hereafter but it don’t mean lo leave the Hypocrite free in this life….
And also there is second way to treat the Hypocrite “To disgrace him and show all over the world that the man is Hypocrite” But Allah Almighty don’t wish to disgrace his creature, rather he (The Hypocrite) must die….right!!!!

Well you know Islam a whole lot better than I do Summia and I respect your right to believe as you do. Someone who leaves Christianity is regarded as a pig that returns to it's filth after it has been washed or a dog that returns to it's vomit to eat it. (They have returned to their previous sinful ways). Amongst the Christian community that person is disgraced and has to live with the lurking fear of a day of a frightful day of judgement and indignation. Do you consider this to be weak?

Look Look paul!
Religion don’t means only sweetness. Religion means “Balanced way” coz if religion will be sooooo sweet and only sweet then why religion????
Therefore, Allah almighty not only merciful allah the beneficient but also fierce in punishment.

I agree and all is not sweet in Christianity " through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" "all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" "mortify (put to death) therefore your members (you fleshly desires in your body parts) which are upon the earth". It is a hard life to be a Christian as i'm sure it is to be a muslim.

Now, why our parents gets fireced when we disobey them? We can’t say that our parents are not merciful, infact they are trying to save our life….

But if they killed us what lesson do we learn from that?

[maro]

i don't feel it's appropriate to interrupt the thread by this discussion,

Paul, start a new thread i f you want to go on with disscussion ,please

[summia]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

This to me creates problems. Wouldn't it be more glorifying to allah if people were free to leave Islam but chose not to because it is the truth and they have found allah and the way of righteousness.
If on the other hand people who depart from Islam must fear for their lives how will the world ever know if a muslim is a muslim because he loves allah and has found the truth or because he is afraid not to?

Yes, paul! You are at the right to fear, coz fear gets place in heart when person has less knowledge about someone. Look, if i hav not seen a loin then suddenly someone will tell me "A loin is beast animal" Then fear gets place in my heart about lion and I wil hate lion coz it is a beats animal.
But we know lion is not a crazy one ready to beat everyone. If you treat well you will get well answer.
The Hadeeth that you hav mentioned was about hypocrites, poeple accept Islam and then go away, like a trade had been started at that time. When ever Muslims participated in Battles and got lefted wealth after Battle, the hypocritse came first to accept Islam and after getting benefit they used to leave Islam. What you say for them?
If I came to accept your religion and you will surely appriciate me.....
After getting appriciation and getting my purpose to come i leave, what will be your response? you will think "Hav i been here to getting benefit and after getting benefit i leave! and the lose you hav got my this act will you leave me alive?" definately not!
If you are a positive think towards humanity you will kill coz Transsgression should not live free.
That was the behind the Hadeeth, if poeple wants to come and accept Islam with their heart and then they feel not comfort and leave will never die, that Hadeeth is not vedicted for those who come with clean hearted without any greed behind.
And also try to understand the Hadeeth, first) these are sayings of one companion of the prophet...right not the prophet himself.....
I don't say that Muhammad didn't say so, he said same as mentioned, but not for all leavers of Islam. The companoin is in anger and he said so.....
second) Islam is not rested upon only one Hadeeth that you have mentioned here, Islam looks all metters behined and then apply the verdiction. like the example of lion "not craze ready to beat every one".....
some other places in Hadeeth it's also mentioned that "If any non Muslim gets shelter in your home; give him shelter and then support him to leave at the safe place"
to understand Islam, we can't rest at one sentance, we need to look as a whole teachings.....

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Yes to call people to faith, but how is the execution of hypocrites doing this? What this actually achieves is keeping people in the faith by fear, leaving a hypocrite to live out his short life would not affect the muslims duty to call people to faith.

I have already mentioned, the Hadeeth you narrate was for Hypocrites, coz non Muslims whenever sees benefit in Islam they used to accept and after getting benefit they leave. And i have interperated in my first answer according to Hypocrites. And it is the common sense that "A lion beats who tease"

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Well you know Islam a whole lot better than I do Summia and I respect your right to believe as you do. Someone who leaves Christianity is regarded as a pig that returns to it's filth after it has been washed or a dog that returns to it's vomit to eat it. (They have returned to their previous sinful ways). Amongst the Christian community that person is disgraced and has to live with the lurking fear of a day of a frightful day of judgement and indignation. Do you consider this to be weak?

can be weak or can not be weak depending upon two situations:
1) Someone leaves in his innocence and came back, in that situation if he is treated so will be weak.
2) If someone has full sense and go out for his greed or some any other self pupose, treating same as you mentioned will be better but best is, if he not repent then must be killed rather disgracing, coz God's creature should not be disgraced. Killing means send him towards Lord and whatever the matter will be him be handled by God.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

But if they killed us what lesson do we learn from that?

Look, what the example I hav mentioned you not from Muslims side, from God side, that was the response for "why God is firce?as he loves us so much?"
As you mentioed in your previous post that "God is benevolent and Mercyful" I said not only benevolent and Mercyful but also firce in punishment as our parents are. and that was just a short example, coz parents don't do justice as they are selfish about their Children. But God is not selfish about His creature, His response is justice.....

I hope I hav covered a lot, if still any problem then I will be here pual!
coz I love to reply for those who take positive towards other.....

[summia]

[quote=*Paul*;888074]

This to me creates problems. Wouldn't it be more glorifying to allah if people were free to leave Islam but chose not to because it is the truth and they have found allah and the way of righteousness.

How it be glorified paul!
think if someone is leaving after accepting and he comes for Hypocracy, how can he realize the truth and righteousness, if he is already a rolling stone...

[*Paul*]

Originally Posted by maro

i don't feel it's appropriate to interrupt the thread by this discussion,

Paul, start a new thread i f you want to go on with disscussion ,please

Sorry Maro, I didn't mean to derail the thread, I thought it was on topic as I was discussing a hadith. But this is perhaps better discussed between Muslims and I have my answers now so i'll bow out of the thread.

[summia]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Sorry Maro, I didn't mean to derail the thread, I thought it was on topic as I was discussing a hadith. But this is perhaps better discussed between Muslims and I have my answers now so i'll bow out of the thread.

Don't lose pual!
You can come to another thread here, I'm going to post "Misconceptions about Islam"
Infact this thread was not for discussing misconceptions....
Plz come to that post,

[Cordoba]

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said:

“Abandon desire for this world, and God will love you.

Abandon desire for others’ goods, and people will love you.”

(Hadith in Ibn Majah)