Jesus of the Bible and Quran (punishment, Moses, Messiah, Torah)

[Zxzyx]

Cordoba
Granted about too many questions. Could you comment on the below

<<Jesus became one of the greatest prophets of God, and was sent to the Children of Israel in order to confirm the teachings of his predecessor, the Prophet Moses. His birth was a miracle, and, like all prophets of God, he was granted several miracles. He approached his people, telling them:>>



Two things here. It says that Jesus confirmed the scriptures, which I whole-heartedly believe but it doesn’t say that Jesus corrected the corrupted scriptures. The confirming of the scriptures is one of the requirements of a prophet and yet Muhammad told a completely new story. You said earlier that Muhammad didn’t recommend the scriptures to Muslims so he is not confirming what was before him.



Secondly it says ‘like all prophets of God, he was granted several miracles’ this I believe is another requirement of a prophet (see Deuteronomy 18v21-22 a prophet must be able to give signs of proof i.e. Short term prophecies or miracles). Not only do we find Muhammad unable to perform miracles but the Qur’an states several times this very inability.
Thanks

Zyzyx

[Cordoba]

<< You said earlier that Muhammad didn’t recommend the scriptures to Muslims so he is not confirming what was before him >>

He is confirming God's Guidance of Monotheism sent to all prophets before him, but not necessarily all what is in earlier scriptures due (from an Islamic perspective) to the man-made changes which took place after Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them.

As for miracles, prophet Muhammad did perform many miracles, but his main miracle from God was The Qur'an itself, which is a miracle for all generations to come, not only witnessed by those who lived in his era.

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/

[Zxzyx]

Cordoba



In answer to your mention of the ‘Gospel of Barnabas’.

Do you know that the author of the Gospel of Barnabas was in fact Father Moreno, a 16 century former Christian who became a Muslim. The Gospel of Barnabas was written in Italian. See David Cox, The Gospel of Barnabas (London: Allan and Unwin) In reference to this is a quote from Peter G Riddle/Peter Cotterell, Islam in Context (Baker Academic) ‘This is a thorough examination of the many questions raised by the so-called Gospel of Barnabas and ought to have ended the claims by Muslims, and even Muslim scholars, that this Gospel is the one and only first century Gospel written by a disciple of Jesus.’

Thanks

Zyzyx

[Ezzedean]

Dear Zyzyx
I've read your post and foud it to be rather interesting. You seem very educated when it comes down to religion, so I will give the most educated reply I can give aswell.

Miracles were performed by Jesus and Moses that were so amazing we couldn't even imagine what it would be like to see them. Mohammed on the other hand did not perform such miracles, so does this make him any less of a prophet? I do not believe so.

Mohammed was an illiterate, he could neither read nor write before given the word from God. A man who is unable to read and write suddenly begins speaking in a way NO MAN has ever spoke before is in my eyes somewhat of a miracle. The Quran is in fact flawless, now I know this may seem like an extreme statement, but it is fact. Gramatically it is perfect, and the flow of it is like nothing the Arabic language had ever seen. There is not one contradiction in the Quran as it is said to straight from God himself, is this not a miracle? Now I agree, this is not amazing as Jesus curing the blind or Moses splitting the sea but maybe there is a reason for that.

God asked Muhammed, have you not seen the sun? The moon? The mountains? Is this not miracle enough? Jesus performed miracles and people LOVED him, people began to worship Jesus. Is this what God wanted? I dont believe so. God didnt give Muhammed the opprotunity to perform these miracles because he wanted us to see how he was just a man like you and I. I dont know about you, but do you not believe it is impressive that a prophet who did not perform those unbelievable miracles was able to spawn the fastest growing religion in the world today? He did this with the words of God, and that alone. Muhammed talks about the solar system and the creation of babies within the womens womb, how did an illiterate know these things?

Let me ask you this. If a man came up to you today and told you he had a dream of God, and Godwas in him and you were to follow him and what he said, and he after he tells you theis he creates fire in one hand and water in another, he then turns night to day and day to night. Would you follow him and worship him due to this miracle? I truly hope not as this is what "the beast" or "anti Christ" will do to us. He will fool us with these miracles we asked for from our prophets, he knows we are weak minded and will fall for these tricks.

The Jews constantly asked Jesus to perform miracles infront of them and he never did, he only performed them infront of his disciples. The Jews killed jesus because they didnt believe he was who he said he was, and he wouldnt perform the miracles they thought he would be capable of, is this right? I dont think so, and neither is calling Muhammed less of a Prophet because he never performed any miracles.

I'll tell you this right now, if I had the opprotunity to either see Jesus or Moses perform a miracle or hear them speak, I would choose to hear them speak, because nothing could be more amazing than the word of God.

Salam
Peace and Blessings
Ezzedean Fadel ( jiggero@hotmail.com )

[Melody]

Originally Posted by Cordoba

God says in The Qur'an:

"We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that God is over all things competent?" (2:106)

All the best.

Cordoba,
No offense but it sounds like the same thing. It would be like someone coming along, claiming to have the ear of God and changing what is in the Bible with an "oops...".

For example, I read on one Islamic site (on the topic of abrogation) that the original Qu'ran stated that there should be tolerance of other religions. However, the current Qu'ran calls for using the sword on unbelievers.

I'm sorry...again, I have little knowledge of the Qu'ran so perhaps you know which verse they're referring to?

[Ezzedean]

Melody you wrote;
"For example, I read on one Islamic site (on the topic of abrogation) that the original Qu'ran stated that there should be tolerance of other religions. However, the current Qu'ran calls for using the sword on unbelievers"

This is not the case.... if we were to do such things there would be mayham within the streets on a daily bases. The only way you can get full meaning of the Quran is through its Arabic text as it has not been altered in any way..... a christian and jew is a believer of god is he not? The only time we are to use force on anyone is when it is used on us due to our beliefs, and that is it.

Peace and blessin
Ezzedean

[Zxzyx]

The Gospel of Barnabas contradicts:

The Old Testament

The New Testament (both of which I’m sure you believe)

The Qur’an

Itself

Christian History

Secular History (of no bias either way)

Geography (which can be visited even today)



There is no mention of the Gospel of Barnabas:

By the early church who rejected other questionable Gospels. Why no mention of Barnabas?

In the Qur’an?

To Abd al Masih, Bishop of the Najran Christians who met with Muhammad several times to discuss religion, according to Muslim Traditions?

By Muslim scholars during Spain’s occupation from 756-1492AD?

In any commentaries on the Qur’an prior to 1700AD?



The Gospel of Barnabas does make reference to:

Ideas and language used by Dante, the author of ‘Divina Comedia written in 1300AD.

Medieval ideas of ‘Overlords’ that would not have been permitted by the ruling Romans.

Wine casks which were not of Jesus’ time

Medieval court procedures.



All the above suggests that the so-called Gospel of Barnabas was in fact written a millennia after even Muhammad and was written (rather badly) with the purpose of giving some authentication to the Qur’an but instead contradicts it on many points.



Thanks



Zyzyx

[Zxzyx]

As for miracles, prophet Muhammad did perform many miracles, but his main miracle from God was The Qur'an itself, which is a miracle for all generations to come, not only witnessed by those who lived in his era.

Cordoba
You mentioned that Muhammad did perform many miracles. Could you give me the Qur'anic references of these so I know of what you are refering to?

As for the Qur'an itself being proof, I will have to say that that does not stand up in any way, shape or form. The whole point of asking for miraculous proof of prophet hood is to prove that the prophet is genuine. By saying the Qur'an is proof itself is like me saying 'I am the next prophet in line' you will say 'prove it' I then say 'because I say so' It is an insult to the inteligence of anyone who is asked to believe because of this argument.

Thank you

Zyzyx

[Cordoba]

Originally Posted by Zxzyx

You mentioned that Muhammad did perform many miracles. Could you give me the Qur'anic references of these so I know of what you are refering to?

As an example, please check verse (17:1)

[Zxzyx]

Ezzedean
A man who is unable to read and write suddenly begins speaking in a way NO MAN has ever spoke before is in my eyes somewhat of a miracle.


Islamic history tells us that Muhammad recited these verses verbally and others wrote them down. If it could be proved that Muhammad was illiterate and handed the verses to others in his own script, I might call that a miracle. We also know that Muhammad travelled with caravans on long journeys with allsorts of people (most likely Jews and Christians as well) Muhammad had ample time to hear all sorts of stories and theories over the years.



The Quran is in fact flawless



I would like to hear the proof of this because I have read many things to the contrary.



Gramatically it is perfect, and the flow of it is like nothing the Arabic language had ever seen.



In jolly old England we hold the poet William Shakespeare as something of a wonder the likes of which haven’t been ever seen before. To claim this skill as proof of the divine is a strange concept indeed. Once again I would be interested in where you get your idea of perfection.



There is not one contradiction in the Quran as it is said to straight from God himself, is this not a miracle?



I could point you to some interesting websites that disagree with a great deal of proof behind their claims if you are interested?



Muhammed talks about the solar system and the creation of babies within the womens womb,



On the subject of foetal development in the womb, we can prove that the theories mentioned in the Qur’an were common knowledge in that area long before Muhammad was born. On top of that we know that they are incorrect by the standards of modern science.



how did an illiterate know these things?



The main method of passing on information in that time and area was verbal telling memorised stories. The very way in which the Qur’an was transmitted even to this day. So a man who had never seen a written word in his life is more than capable of telling stories he has memorised.

Let me ask you this. If a man came up to you today and told you he had a dream of God, and Godwas in him and you were to follow him and what he said, and he after he tells you theis he creates fire in one hand and water in another, he then turns night to day and day to night. Would you follow him and worship him due to this miracle? I truly hope not as this is what "the beast" or "anti Christ" will do to us.



An interesting question.

Firstly miracles, on their own don’t mean anything. I have seen many magicians doing things that baffle my mind. There was always a reason that miracles were done in the Bible. They were never just for show to demonstrate how cool the doer was. I believe Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert at the beginning of his ministry (Matthew 4 1-11) to perform such a pointless self-serving miracle. Such miracles as bringing to life birds He made from clay served no purpose and describe a Jesus that abused his power to pass the time during his childhood.


The Jews constantly asked Jesus to perform miracles infront of them and he never did, he only performed them infront of his disciples.



Can I just mention a few things? The Jews you are referring to I take to be the Jewish leaders and there are not many references to this type of situation in the Bible. Secondly Jesus’ mission primarily was to the Jews so the miracles his did do were almost exclusively to Jews. Lastly if by ‘disciples’ you mean ‘the Twelve’ then who were all the sick and demon-possessed he healed? If you mean ‘followers’ you could argue that unbelieving sick people became followers once they were healed.



The Jews killed Jesus because they didnt believe he was who he said he was, and he wouldnt perform the miracles they thought he would be capable of, is this right? I dont think so, and neither is calling Muhammed less of a Prophet because he never performed any miracles.



The Jews who wanted Jesus dead were many and had as many reasons. I don’t claim to know them all but Ill mention a few.

The Jews were expecting a David like Savour who would lead them all to destroy the Roman empire and couldn’t believe that a man who probably looked more like a tramp was the one sent by God to them.

Jesus knew the scriptures better than them and understood their true meaning which constantly embarrassed them.

Jesus kept hinting that God’s inheritance was going to be taken from the Jews and given to everyone.

Jesus basically cared nothing for telling people that what they were doing was alright if it was wrong. Some people took this as fresh guidance while others took it as a slap in the face.


I'll tell you this right now, if I had the opportunity to either see Jesus or Moses perform a miracle or hear them speak, I would choose to hear them speak, because nothing could be more amazing than the word of God.



I think you made a wise choice. Can I strongly recommend you read the Bible if you haven’t already whether you think it is corrupt or not. I believe it is the very word of God for you to hear any time. It has been proved time and again to be the most reliable book in antiquity in every way and there exists an almost endless supply of proof to back this claim.



I hope this has been of some help. Thank you for taking the time to write to me.



All the best



Zyzyx