Muslims only - no debate - Gay animals?

[Gharib]

Originally Posted by .lava

1- God created animals with no intellect and conscience.
2- i would not call an animal "gay" even though they have same sex mates just like i would not call a lion "murderer" for its killing.

am i understood this far?

that actually makes alot of sense. a scorpion for example cannot resist to sting another creature because that is it's nature, but we do not call it a murderer because thats how it was created, our human attitude towards these examples actually quite well shows that pretty much everyone accepts animals as not having free will while only humans do.

jazak Allah khairan.

[maro]

Hi Mr Spinkles

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

1. After considering the evidence, do you believe homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom? Why or why not? Any thoughts/feelings about it?
2. Please share any thoughts you have, if any, on this issue in the context of Islam. This is an open-ended question so interpret it as you wish and discuss. For example, are these animals a beautiful part of Allah's creation, or some kind of flaw or corruption?

I am not qualified to consider what you call evidence ,because i am not a biologist

Any implications for the origins of human sexuality, in your opinion?

It depends on what the human being is ?
If viewed as an Ape descendant...or the perfect animal "l'homme machine ".....then certainly studying the animal behaviour must have implications on how we should or expected to behave...but this is not the case in Islam

Man is viewed as a unique creature...a connection between heaven and Earth....and what makes him alien to the animal kingdom is not an IQ level...nor anything that exists to a lesser degree in animals...but something unique which is his 'spirituality ' and his ability to choose

The words 'moral', 'immoral', 'good', 'evil' ,'responsible' , 'conscience' are all meaningless while talking about animals...because they are all atributed to the essence of humanity which is ,the ability to choose

Also ,we don't see religious animals...i think this statment describes it best : Animals waited to become humans until the point in time where they began to pray. "Ali ezzat begovic' "

In short , and in the light of the above unerstanding of who we are ,the answer to your question is No , there are no implications or relevance between the animal behavior ,as we observe it , and how we should behave.

[Mr Spinkles]

Hi maro,

Thanks for your response!

Originally Posted by maro

I am not qualified to consider what you call evidence ,because i am not a biologist

Okay, then please consider what biologists have to say. I posted a lot of that information or linked to it in the OP, also I quoted a lot of biologists and their research in this thread, including video and photographs: Does Homosexuality Occur in Animals?
Your thoughts on the existence of homosexuality in animals, based on what biologists say?

[maro]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Hi maro,

Thanks for your response!
Okay, then please consider what biologists have to say. I posted a lot of that information or linked to it in the OP, also I quoted a lot of biologists and their research in this thread, including video and photographs: Does Homosexuality Occur in Animals?
Your thoughts on the existence of homosexuality in animals, based on what biologists say?

okay ,i 'll go through the links you posted ,as the time allows
I just want to say that i see no need to deny the homosexual behaviour if it exists...it doesn't make any difference to me.....it will be something interesting to learn...but not a paradigm shift or a revolution

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by maro

okay ,i 'll go through the links you posted ,as the time allows
I just want to say that i see no need to deny the homosexual behaviour if it exists...it doesn't make any difference to me.....it will be something interesting to learn...but not a paradigm shift or a revolution

Thank you, I understand if you don't have time. Your and not4me's approach is interesting because Fatihah and eselam seem to view things differently, I was hoping to understand why there is this difference of opinion?

[Sahar]

Well said Mayada, this is the idea that has been raised many times here and at its sister threads...but I guess this is not the answer that Mr Spinkles is looking for...

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

I was hoping to understand why there is this difference of opinion?

Due to genetic and acquired (e.g environmental) causes? It's the human nature...

[Gharib]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

Thank you, I understand if you don't have time. Your and not4me's approach is interesting because Fatihah and eselam seem to view things differently, I was hoping to understand why there is this difference of opinion?

well Mr Spinkles everyone has an oppinion on something, just because we are muslims that doesn't mean we all share the same views. it is mostly dependant on what one knows or has come to know. you for example are pro-gay, why? because you have read about it and you think that it does exist, i had never read about homosexuality in animals so naturally i am anti-gay. but if there is evidence to suggest that homosexual animals do exist then i can accept that.

[maro]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

I was hoping to understand why there is this difference of opinion?

I can't speak for Fatihah and eselam....I just want to clarify that Islam is a religion and it doesn't have a say in scientific issues..nor is the quran a book of science inspite of some of the quranic hints about the cosmos and the natural world...and that's why asking ordinary muslims ,who are not biologists ,about what they think in a scientific issue doesn't conform to this idea

I understand that some religious people might have bias in accepting science....just like non religious people can have the same bias ,btw.....but according to my own understanding ,this shouldn't be the case with muslims because we are supposed to be secure about our creed

While starting this thread ,you probably imagined yourself to be Galileo , fighting a scientific holy war with the catholic church or something like that ....so , i just want you to bare in mind that while the catholic church persecuted its opponents at a time...Muslims developed the scientific method and presented it to the world
History of scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't deny that we are currently suffering from the lack of scientific standards and scientific thinking almost in everything...but this is to be blamed on the lack of deep understanding of Islam...a religion that once fueled one of the world's greatest scientific revolutions

One more thing is that i hate when people present mere speculation to us as science , expecting us to immediately bow down to it...otherwise ,we are anti science...For example , although i accept the evolutionary biology and find it to be a very intersting field...i reject the narrative that ends up with "so ,we are Ape descendands ,and God doesn't exist "...does that make me anti science or something ?

[Mr Spinkles]

maro,

Shakespeare coined a phrase, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". It basically means someone is trying so hard to prove something about themselves, that it becomes a little suspicious. Did I criticize Islam as anti-science? No. So who are you trying to convince?

I think perhaps you and not4me feel that I came into this with a pre-conceived view of what every single Muslim thinks. That's not true. I think some people had a pre-conceived view of my intentions, and they responded to their idea of what I intended, instead of responding to the information I posted and the questions I actually asked.

I respect and admire the contributions of Muslims to the scientific method. You've got me all wrong: I never imagined myself to be Galileo. I imagined myself to be someone with scientific training and with access to a library of scientific literature, who worked hard to pass some interesting knowledge on to eselam and Fatihah. Their responses were interesting and they were clearly based partly on their Muslim background.

I was curious to see what other Muslims on RF think, whether you knew about these facts, whether you would reject them like eselam or Fatihah or accept them, whether you were open to changing your mind, disgusted, fascinated, etc. That's what a DIR forum is for, no?

BTW not a single person yet has thanked me for sharing some cool science (credit to Nanda for the video) .... just saying.

[~Amin~]

Just wanted to add my understanding.
According to their faculties and abilities the animals have laws they should
be abiding by which is intrinsic.

God Almighty says.
And there is no CREATURE on the earth or bird that flies
with its wings except they are communities like you. we
have not have not neglected in the register a thing. Then
unto their Lord they will be GATHERED. Qur'an 6 v 38

And when the wild beasts are GATHERED. Qur'an 81 v5

According to these verses animals will be gathered after there
physical death, but why? the statements of the Prophet and his
friends elaborate.

One of the companions of the Messenger was followed by an animal,
when he realized he started to chase it to kill it, when the Prophet was
informed of the matter he said,'' you escaped its EVIL and it escaped
your EVIL''.

Another indication they the animals are accountable.

Ibn Abbas said that ''there are creations of God Almighty that are not
known, of other realms, and they are accountable for their actions''.

Abu Hurrara says, "All creatures will be gathered on the Day of Resurrection, the beasts, birds and all others. Allah's justice will be so perfect, that the un-horned sheep will receive retribution from the horned sheep. Allah will then command them, `Be dust!'


So lets assume these are gay animals, so what?