The Myths of America

[tumbleweed41]

America is a Democracy.

Incorrect, the U.S. Government is a representative republic. In a democracy every issue is decided by the people directly. This results in 'majority rules'. The founders saw the dangers in leaving all decisions to the will of the people and set up a representative republic where representatives of the States (Senators) and representatives of the people (Representatives) go to Washington to pass and write Laws. Even the Commander in Chief is not directly selected by the people, but rather by the Electoral College, who may or may not cast their vote as directed by popular vote.

America is a Christian Nation.

Incorrect, unless one wants to simply count the majority as the national religion. In that case America would be an Evangelical Protestant Nation (at about 26% of the population, not a clear majority, but the highest percentage when broken down.)
Many like to point to our "Christian Forefathers", but in reality the founders of this nation were an eclectic mix of Christians, Deists, Agnostics and even Atheists.
The Congress and President John Adams made this quite clear in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, where it is stated quite plainly "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,"
The Senate's ratification of the Treaty was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken.


Americans united to fight the British in the Revolution.

Incorrect, in fact the Revolutionaries were in the minority as far as the population of the colonies went. The majority were content to petition the King for a parliamentary seat. The war itself was more of a civil war than a revolution. Most members of the British army in America were citizens of the colonies, and had never set foot in England.

[Kilgore Trout]

I suppose next you're going to tell me that George Washington could tell a lie.

[AzraelsTear]

is this serious? do you want some other ones, i can give you recent ones.

america "saved europe" during world war 2
this is still very used and people really believed simple because of lack of education and, i guess, the removal of actual proper history. during the second world war germany invaded poland (this was the beginning) and then planned to take over western and northern europe, united states LOOKED UP to germany being the most advanced nation during this time, and it was only after the war had truly begun that there was any "contempt" towards them (watch any american movie about this period and you will see that they always say "does evil nazis" and so on, no, this did not exist in real life).

france, the biggest ally trough all of time to america, the nation that was responsible for america being ONE NATION and not several, asked their ally for help when they got invaded as france did not prepared for any war, the united states said NO, they did NOT help the greatest ally, the nation that helped them throughout time, do you learn that in school?

france, in the fear of total destruction of historical areas and monuments decided not to engage and simple surrender and using guerilla tactics whiles the allies (britian and friends) would figure out what to do, time went by and eventually russia, britain, french forces and various others attacked, most of the german army, around 80% i think, had done the not so very bright thing and actually gone to wear with russia, when they arrived at sat petersburg, i think, the russian war machine was as full spunk and did not waste any time, the largest standing on the planet marched straight towards germany whipping out anything in their way, the german war was over and the west with british, french and some american forces (who finally joined the war 42) did not have much to do then picking up the pieces and deal with the small percentage of on the western front whiles the large germany army on the east got destroyed moment by moment.

if any single country was responsible for "winning the european wars", it was russia, but united states should be ASHAMED of their historic actions, of course, this is not the case.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by AzraelsTear

is this serious? do you want some other ones, i can give you recent ones.

america "saved europe" during world war 2
this is still very used and people really believed simple because of lack of education and, i guess, the removal of actual proper history. during the second world war germany invaded poland (this was the beginning) and then planned to take over western and northern europe, united states LOOKED UP to germany being the most advanced nation during this time, and it was only after the war had truly begun that there was any "contempt" towards them (watch any american movie about this period and you will see that they always say "does evil nazis" and so on, no, this did not exist in real life).

france, the biggest ally trough all of time to america, the nation that was responsible for america being ONE NATION and not several, asked their ally for help when they got invaded as france did not prepared for any war, the united states said NO, they did NOT help the greatest ally, the nation that helped them throughout time, do you learn that in school?

france, in the fear of total destruction of historical areas and monuments decided not to engage and simple surrender and using guerilla tactics whiles the allies (britian and friends) would figure out what to do, time went by and eventually russia, britain, french forces and various others attacked, most of the german army, around 80% i think, had done the not so very bright thing and actually gone to wear with russia, when they arrived at sat petersburg, i think, the russian war machine was as full spunk and did not waste any time, the largest standing on the planet marched straight towards germany whipping out anything in their way, the german war was over and the west with british, french and some american forces (who finally joined the war 42) did not have much to do then picking up the pieces and deal with the small percentage of on the western front whiles the large germany army on the east got destroyed moment by moment.

if any single country was responsible for "winning the european wars", it was russia, but united states should be ASHAMED of their historic actions, of course, this is not the case.

As usual, it's a bit more complicated than that. Were we the knight in shining armor who single-handedly trounced the Axis powers? Of course not, but the fact remains that if we hadn't gotten involved, they probably would have won.

[tumbleweed41]

Originally Posted by Storm

As usual, it's a bit more complicated than that. Were we the knight in shining armor who single-handedly trounced the Axis powers? Of course not, but the fact remains that if we hadn't gotten involved, they probably would have won.

I am going to have to disagree Storm.
Hitlers invovment on the Russian front was depleting Germanys resources, his Generals were beginning to dissent, and German popular opinion for the war was failing.
We helped, albeit a bit late, but we were not the deciding factor in the European theater.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by tumbleweed41

I am going to have to disagree Storm.
Hitlers invovment on the Russian front was depleting Germanys resources, his Generals were beginning to dissent, and German popular opinion for the war was failing.
We helped, albeit a bit late, but we were not the deciding factor in the European theater.

Well, I claim no particular expertise in the matter, but my understanding* is that without the fresh manpower provided by the USA, Europe would have fallen.

I reiterate that we were not the sole deciding factor, though.

* I think it should be noted that, while *I* am no expert, my father is, and he's where I got the information.

[gnomon]

Originally Posted by tumbleweed41

America is a Democracy.

Incorrect, the U.S. Government is a representative republic. In a democracy every issue is decided by the people directly. This results in 'majority rules'. The founders saw the dangers in leaving all decisions to the will of the people and set up a representative republic where representatives of the States (Senators) and representatives of the people (Representatives) go to Washington to pass and write Laws. Even the Commander in Chief is not directly selected by the people, but rather by the Electoral College, who may or may not cast their vote as directed by popular vote.

America is a Christian Nation.

Incorrect, unless one wants to simply count the majority as the national religion. In that case America would be an Evangelical Protestant Nation (at about 26% of the population, not a clear majority, but the highest percentage when broken down.)
Many like to point to our "Christian Forefathers", but in reality the founders of this nation were an eclectic mix of Christians, Deists, Agnostics and even Atheists.
The Congress and President John Adams made this quite clear in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, where it is stated quite plainly "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,"
The Senate's ratification of the Treaty was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken.


Americans united to fight the British in the Revolution.

Incorrect, in fact the Revolutionaries were in the minority as far as the population of the colonies went. The majority were content to petition the King for a parliamentary seat. The war itself was more of a civil war than a revolution. Most members of the British army in America were citizens of the colonies, and had never set foot in England.

The first one regarding Democracy is one I really wish our educators would do a better job with our students.

Add to that list that the U.S. never purchased land with the Louisiana Purchase. Jefferson brokered a deal for a claim. The French had no sense of land ownership or control over "Louisiana". That facts of this can be noted by the Indian Wars in which the US had to force indigenous peoples off the land "purchased".

[tumbleweed41]

Originally Posted by gnomon

The first one regarding Democracy is one I really wish our educators would do a better job with our students.

Indeed. I cringe whenever I hear someone claim "We live in a Democracy!!"

Originally Posted by gnomon

Add to that list that the U.S. never purchased land with the Louisiana Purchase. Jefferson brokered a deal for a claim. The French had no sense of land ownership or control over "Louisiana". That facts of this can be noted by the Indian Wars in which the US had to force indigenous peoples off the land "purchased".

Leading to 'Manifest Destiny' and 'Indian Removal', one of the darkest stains on the history of America.

[AzraelsTear]

Originally Posted by Storm

As usual, it's a bit more complicated than that. Were we the knight in shining armor who single-handedly trounced the Axis powers? Of course not, but the fact remains that if we hadn't gotten involved, they probably would have won.

erh? the "good guys", ie, british, american and so on fought around 20% of the german army, the other 80% was fighting RUSSIA... exactly how the u.s made a major contribution is beyond me.

[AzraelsTear]

Originally Posted by Storm

Well, I claim no particular expertise in the matter, but my understanding* is that without the fresh manpower provided by the USA, Europe would have fallen.

I reiterate that we were not the sole deciding factor, though.

* I think it should be noted that, while *I* am no expert, my father is, and he's where I got the information.

a complete change in opinion then, whiles still pretending you did not change your mind, that much.. nice..

i do not know how "europe would have fallen", as europe is europe, germany would have lost whatever the u.s or british forces would have done anything, russia was destroying them.

regarding your father, it is worth noting to you that americans whee as ignorant THEN as now, as you know most americans have a hard time to find their own country on a map so your fathers subjective opinion aside, how much is that worth? seriously, the american people where, similar to today, very ignorant of the actual events of the war and when it Finished they assumed/told or promoted that the US was responsible for the win not saying anything about russia and what they actually did. youknow, like today , try being a bit objective here instead of "listening to your dad" or believe whatever you are told, sure, it may make you feel good but so does religion, it does not make it true, and is truth not what matters?