Have people forgotten about 9/11? (choice, America, scriptures, Satan, Christians)

[kai]

Originally Posted by Alceste

Yeah, the public "reasons" have been very flexible, haven't they? I'll just assume the real reason, as outlined in detail in the PNAC's paper, is that they want to install permanent US military bases throughout the reason to make it easier for the US to fight wars on several fronts in the Middle East simultaneously.

what exatly are you talking about ,you seem to have very little idea of what goes on in Afghaniastan and Iraq, and you seem to have no idea of the military capability of the US . this last statement is verging on the ridiculous.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by kai

what exatly are you talking about ,you seem to have very little idea of what goes on in Afghaniastan and Iraq, and you seem to have no idea of the military capability of the US . this last statement is verging on the ridiculous.

It is nevertheless what the PNAC wants to do, ridiculous or not. And ridiculous or not, the "war on terror" as currently being prosecuted is the brainchild of signatories to the PNAC, including (but certainly not limited to) Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

It is nevertheless what the PNAC wants to do, ridiculous or not. And ridiculous or not, the "war on terror" as currently being prosecuted is the brainchild of signatories to the PNAC, including (but certainly not limited to) Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney.

and!
could you elaberate?
i mean are you one of these "American empire" theorists?
or How would you conduct the war on terror?
or is the no such war ? or no such threat?

[Alceste]

Originally Posted by kai

and!
could you elaberate?
i mean are you one of these "American empire" theorists?
or How would you conduct the war on terror?
or is the no such war ? or no such threat?

There is no such war. The whole concept is cynical propaganda - they have given the US an undefined enemy to justify a program of constant, endless war. By calling it a "war on terror" rather than, say "war on al Qaeda" or "war on the Taliban", they can keep redefining "terror" to mean "any country we want to invade and any government we wish to overthrow". It's the same idea behind the "cold war" and "red scare" propaganda, where the public was whipped into a frenzy of irrational fear of communism (not the USSR, which would have been reasonable). By doing this the US public was persuaded to support CIA-sponsored terrorism in Central America to overthrow their democratically elected socialist governments and replace them with bloodthirsty puppet dictators.

There is a threat of the US being the target of terrorist attacks. This should be obvious, with even the most general familiarity of US foreign policy - through their incessant violence and interference in the politics of sovereign nations, they've made enemies all over the world, and are making more every day. The best way to minimize the risk is up for debate, but the bottom line is that we are all vulnerable to terrorist attacks, in every country in the world in varying degrees. Even if the US overthrows every government in the world that looks at them funny, there will still be a threat of terrorist attack. Even if the world becomes an enlightened globe of peace, justice, democracy and euphoric, endless consumerism there will still be a threat of terrorist attack.

There are nutters in the world. You may even have one next door. You think the way Bush has been dealing with it (mass murder and endless war on multiple fronts) is better than investigating and working to avert specific terrorist threats?

[kai]

the war on terror which you say doesn't exist is fought by our security forces on a daily basis. most people are shielded from it by the security efforts to stop attacks but you must have noticed the occasional Islamic Extremist trying to blow people up here in the UK.I believe it is a wAR as never before have we been faced with such a diversity of groups foreign and home grown who have the same objectives

I suppose we could pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq come home get under the Quilt and hope the nasty men will go away.

and these enemies we make all over the world who are they exactly anybody who's not a psychopath? i would be interested in knowing which peace loving democratic nation has turned against us due to our foreign policy

[Alceste]

Originally Posted by kai

the war on terror which you say doesn't exist is fought by our security forces on a daily basis. most people are shielded from it by the security efforts to stop attacks but you must have noticed the occasional Islamic Extremist trying to blow people up here in the UK.I believe it is a wAR as never before have we been faced with such a diversity of groups foreign and home grown who have the same objectives

I suppose we could pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq come home get under the Quilt and hope the nasty men will go away.

and these enemies we make all over the world who are they exactly anybody who's not a psychopath? i would be interested in knowing which peace loving democratic nation has turned against us due to our foreign policy

Are you aware the US conspired with others to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran?

In 1951 Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq received the vote required from the parliament to nationalize the British-owned oil industry, in a situation known as the Abadan Crisis. Despite British pressure, including an economic blockade, the nationalization continued. Mossadegh was briefly removed from power in 1952 but was quickly re-appointed by the shah, due to an overwhelming majority in parliament supporting him, and he, in turn, forced the Shah into a brief exile in August 1953. A military coup headed by his former minister of the Interior and retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, with the active support of the intelligence services of the British (MI6) and US (CIA) governments - including mass propaganda leaflet dropping (slogans such as; "Up with Communism, Down with Ala" and "Down with Islam, up with Communism" – designed specifically to turn the population against Mossadegh, as well as the agents of CIA and MI6 (dressed as Mossadegh supporters) spurting machine guns into crowds (known as Operation Ajax), forced Mossadegh from office on August 19. Mossadegh was arrested and tried for treason by an un-official military tribunal, (Mossadegh was imprisoned and his foreign minister, Hossein Fatemi, executed) while Zahedi succeeded him as prime minister, and suppressed opposition to the Shah, specifically the National Front and Communist Tudeh Party.


In return for the US support the Shah agreed, in 1954, to allow an international consortium of British (40% of shares), American (40%), French (6%), and Dutch (14%) companies to run the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years. The international consortium agreed to a fifty-fifty split of profits with Iran but would not allow Iran to audit their accounts to confirm the consortium was reporting profits properly, nor would they allow Iran to have members on their board of directors.

You surprised many people in Iran are irritated with the US and the UK?

[kai]

Originally Posted by Alceste

Are you aware the US conspired with others to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran?

yes

You surprised many people in Iran are irritated with the US and the UK?

no i was going to say they are ideological opposites but you have an outdated reasoning

i am talking about the iran of 2008 you are talking about the 1950s

[PureX]

Originally Posted by kai

no i was going to say they are ideological opposites but you have an outdated reasoning

i am talking about the iran of 2008 you are talking about the 1950s

It was the Reagan administration that gave Saddam poison gas and helped him to use it effectively against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. That wasn't the 1950s, it was the 1980s. By the way, it was Donald Rumsfeld who personally interfaced with Saddam on that dirty little task.

[Aqualung]

People haven't forgotten about 9/11 - they've just put it in perspective.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Robert Heinlein

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.

Oh, I think there's a whole lot of tyrannies that are worse then that.

Originally Posted by PJ O'Rourke

There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

Well, when you live on your own planet, and so effect no one but yourself with your actions, then you can damn well do as you please, and take the consequences.