How many gods there are in Hinduism? (ritual, atheist, spiritual)

[Worshipper]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

An impressive collection of quotations, Suraj, frubals. But dvaitists could no doubt list quotations referencing the reality of discrete entities as well.

From my own advaitist point of view I'd agree that Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma posits a single, transcendent Consciousness/Reality underlying the perceived world. But in popular Hinduism there's often little thought given to metaphysics or vedic theology. There is just family tradition and folklore. Many, if not most, (S)indu's really do believe in a multiplicity of "gods" and give little thought to abstract, vedantist-style monology.

This touches on something I have been wondering about Hinduism, and I haven't been able to get a good answer from anyone on it.

As I've heard my fellow non-Hindus try to explain the Hindu view of the gods to me, all I've gotten is the sort of monolithic representation expressed in the original post that strikes me as a sectarian sort of response.

If someone trying to understand Christianity asked me to explain the Christian view of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, I could never give such a monolithic explanation. Those views are quite varied even when you consider the official theologies of the various Christian sects. When you add to that the views of the hundreds of millions of individual Christians, it becomes simply dishonest to portray a solitary view as representing all of Christianity.

It seems to me that the view expressed in the OP can't be the only view of gods in Hinduism, shared homogeneously among all Hindus without any shade of variation. I want to understand how all Hindus view the issue, not just some Hindus.

Seyorni, you're the first person I've encountered who's said that there is controversy on this issue and that the views expressed in the OP aren't universal in Hinduism. You've also used the term (a-)dvaitist, a term I've never seen or heard before, and the way you're using it makes me think that if I understood those terms, I'd be closer to understanding how all Hindus view the issue discussed in this thread. Could you explain these ideas a bit more?

[Suraj]

Worshipper,

Seyorni, has not been posting here for a while, so I hope you don't mind if I answer your questions.

I want to first say I am an objectivist. This is meaning to say I make statements of fact. If I say that in Hinduism there is only one supreme being, I mean that as a fact, even if others do not accept that or interpret differently. This is because I define Hinduism as being a Vedic religion and only that which is in consonance with the Vedas is Hinduism. This has also been the traditional definition of Hinduism, Hinduism has held the Vedas to be the supreme authority of Hinduism, anything which goes against the Vedas or diverges from the Vedas is rejected from Hinduism.

I want to give you a rough idea of the evolution of Hinduism. Hinduism was founded by hundreds of different Seers(Risis) some 10,000 years ago(the latest research indicates that they are the oldest books in history) and they existed in the form of an oral tradition at first, but were penned later. These Risis were said to have experienced ultimate reality and fathomed the deepest secrets of the universe in their meditations. They recorded the knowledge they received in the form of hymns, glorifying many deities. They laid down a path called Santana Dharma(the eternal religion of universal laws) and used this to develop a spiritual society which was in harmony with universal laws. This was a very prosperous and advanced society as can be seen from archeological remains.

This Vedic religion flourished for thousands of years in India, but then due to geological changes, there was a decline and the Vedic age ended around 1000BCE. This was the start of what is called the Classical age. This is the era in which Buddhism arose and the Hindu Philosophical schools. The Hindu Philosophical schools all accepted the authority of the Vedas and were known as the Astik schools; Buddhism rejected the authority of the Vedas and was known as the Nastik school. The Hindu schools expanded on Vedic teachings to create rational schools of philosophy. Then later on the epics Mahabharata, Ramayana and the Gita were composed. The Gita is considered the quintessence of the Vedas and is the most sacred texts of Hinduism.

The period up until now is considered the golden age of Hinduism. It is at its most purest and virtually all of Hinduism's central texts come from this period. Later in the early middle ages corruption starts to sets mainly due to invasions etc and Puranas are composed(they are allegedly older, but the first records of the Puranas are in the 3rd-5th century CE) This could be called the Puranic period. These are written in the form of myths, stories, geneologies and histories of the older Vedic times to teach to the masses, as the Vedas were to difficult to understand by the masses. They remained in the public domain, and were regularly altered over the years. This is when the polytheistic culture emerged. In this period caste-system become more rigid and oppressive, womens lost a lot of their freedoms, society became patriarchal and theocratic. However, the Vedic tradition was still kept alive amongst the intelligensia in the various universities that existed in India(Nalanda etc) but there was a decline in society.

In the 8th century AD there was a huge revolution in Hinduism; the birth of Adi-Sankacharya who resurrected the Vedanta tradition of yore and founded Advatia(non-dualism) and a sect of Hinduism known as Smartism. The non-dual school of philosophy proposed by Sankacharya was revolutionary then. Sankacharya propounded, "Shivo Aham" , "Aham Brahasmi" - "Shiva I am", "I am Brahman" that there is only one real reality, the supreme being, the world is nothing but an illusion and the soul is actually the same as the supreme being but is in ignorance. The only way to attain this is through the path of knowledge(Jnana Yoga)

While Adi Sankaras teachings had caused a revolution in the religious thinking of the time, but it had also lead to people believing that because they are god, they don't have to do anything. This lead to the next huge revolution in Hinduism: Dvatia(dualism) founded by Ramunajacharya in the 11th century AD. Ramuncharya believed that the world was real, souls were real, and the supreme being was real. The supreme being is independent but the supreme controller of the entire universe. He also believed there were heavens, where angels(Devtas) resided and the supreme being himself resided in the highest heaven. He advanced the path of devotion and servitude to god(Bhakti Yoga)

This path of Bhakti became the most influencial and common path of Hinduism from thereon. It gave rise to many great saints, who loved god with unending devotion and they become the most adored amongst the people. This is the period when temple worship and the worshipping of gods exploded. The scriptures that appeared during this period are known as the Agamas, and are considered as revealed as the Vedas by their adherants.

The principal sects of Hinduism existing then, and still the main ones today are: Vaishnavism, Shivaism, Shaktism and Smartism. In Vaishnavism, Vishnu or Krishna was accepted as the supreme being; in Shivaism, Shiva was accepted as the supreme being; in Shaktism the Divine Mother was accepted as the supreme being. In Smartism, one had a choice. In all cases the understanding was there was only one supreme being, only each sect had a favourite. Although all the sects had very diverse beliefs and practices, they shared a lot in common and all accepted the authority of the Vedas and Vedic religion.

Later on more and more sects formed in Hinduism, today there are hundreds if not thousands of sects, each with very diverse beliefs, but very much a part of the same Vedic religion.

Then with the invasion of Muslims and then the British, Hinduism suffered immensely and Hindus could not practice their religions, especially under the British, as they had been reduced to poverty. In the 19th century the British brought thse hundreds of sects under the umbrella term of Hinduism. Although Hinduism existed prior to that under the name Santana Dharma or the Vedic religion. Several generations had passed in poverty and illiteracy, now ignorant of Hinduism. Then towards the end of the 19th century the British introduced subjects like Indology and Sanskrit studies and had the Vedas translated into English and mistranslated and misinterpreted making them seem like the rambings of a barbaric people and Hindus lost faith in them. Today, almost 80% of Hindus have not read the Vedas. A smaller percentage, but still significantly large, has not read the Gita. Instead they learn about Hinduism from the stories of Puranas from childhood and indulge in superstition and worship of many gods.

If you ask anybody learned in Hinduism in any sect they will tell you that there is only supreme being, only they know it by various names. If you ask somebody who is ignorant of Hinduism, they will tell you there are many many gods in Hinduism and will tell you the myths of the Puranas as if they really happened. Generally, the more one is versed in the Vedas, the more authentic their understanding on Hinduism.

[want to be hindu]

Originally Posted by Worshipper

I want to understand how all Hindus view the issue, not just some Hindus.

What you are asking would take a book the size of War and Peace. Hinduism is a family of many faiths not just one. Some Hindus are Atheist and some seem almost monotheist. There is one Hindu philosophy that might cover over 80% of all Hindus. It is called Vedanta.I believe that almost all existing sects of Hinduism are directly or indirectly influenced by the philosophical systems developed by the Vedantic sages. Hinduism to a great extent owes its very survival to the systematic formation of the logically advanced systems of Vedanta. The all schools of Vedanta can be categorized in to three schools of thought.They are as follows:

Advaita Vedanta
non-duality

Nirguna Brahman (or the impersonal God of Advaita Vedanta) is the reality underlying all objects and experiences. Brahman is called existence, Knowledge , bliss. Brahman or pure consciousness underlies the whole cosmos. Consciousness according to the Advaita School, unlike the positions held by other Vedanta schools, is not part of Brahman but its very nature. Brahman is also one without a second, all-pervading and the immediate awareness. Brahman thus cannot be known as an individual object distinct from the individual self. However, it can be experienced indirectly in the natural world of experience as a personal God, known as saguna Brahman, or Brahman with qualities. It is usually referred to as īśvara (the Lord).The personal God (Isvara)is a limited manifestation of the Impersonal Brahman.

Vishishtadvaita Qualified
Non-Dualism

This school of thought and says that mankind and the cosmos are a part of God and hence is similar, but not identical. The best way to explain this is an illustration of a spider. Like the spider the projects a web, God projects the whole universe from within itself and therefore can withdraw it in itself. We are part of the web and part of God yet we are not really the same thing.

Dvaita
Dualism

It regards God and all individual souls and matter as eternal and mutually separate entities.Its a lot like the monotheist faiths.

I dont know if this is of any help but I gave it a good try.

[want to be hindu]

Hi guys sorry I said almost the same thing as Suraj. It seems I was writing and he beat me to the punch. He also did a more complete job.

[Suraj]

Hehe, I think both of our posts will be helpful to Worshipper. I think your post does a good job of covering the three mains perspectives of Vedanta(I left out vishishtavatia)

[zenzero]

Friend Suraj & want to be Hindu,
frubals to both except for Suraj could not frubal again soon.
Agree that like most of the population never read the texts of Sanatan Dharma and whatever have tried are not good translations. Must admit that friend Suraj has a knack in *Story Telling* and can write well and look forward to his commentaries on the various texts in future. Am also sure that He can try writing e-books to start to spread dharma as he likes/wants to.
Love & rgds

[Worshipper]

Originally Posted by Suraj

I think both of our posts will be helpful to Worshipper.

Indeed! Thank you to both of you!

Originally Posted by Suraj

Then with the invasion of Muslims and then the British, Hinduism suffered immensely and Hindus could not practice their religions, especially under the British, as they had been reduced to poverty. In the 19th century the British brought thse hundreds of sects under the umbrella term of Hinduism. Although Hinduism existed prior to that under the name Santana Dharma or the Vedic religion. Several generations had passed in poverty and illiteracy, now ignorant of Hinduism. Then towards the end of the 19th century the British introduced subjects like Indology and Sanskrit studies and had the Vedas translated into English and mistranslated and misinterpreted making them seem like the rambings of a barbaric people and Hindus lost faith in them. Today, almost 80% of Hindus have not read the Vedas. A smaller percentage, but still significantly large, has not read the Gita. Instead they learn about Hinduism from the stories of Puranas from childhood and indulge in superstition and worship of many gods.

If you ask anybody learned in Hinduism in any sect they will tell you that there is only supreme being, only they know it by various names. If you ask somebody who is ignorant of Hinduism, they will tell you there are many many gods in Hinduism and will tell you the myths of the Puranas as if they really happened. Generally, the more one is versed in the Vedas, the more authentic their understanding on Hinduism.

So, this sounds like the current situation among people who practice some form of the ancient folk religions of India (which the world calls Hinduism) might vary quite a bit from Vedic religion (which is how you identified Hinduism) and include a great deal of belief in multiple real gods. Would that be a fair assessment?

If that is the case, then roughly what percentage of people that the world calls Hindus fall into the more superstitious category and what percentage fall more into the Vedic category?

Originally Posted by want to be hindu

There is one Hindu philosophy that might cover over 80% of all Hindus. It is called Vedanta.

Where do the other 20% stand?

Also, what sort of percentages are there for each of these three main schools of Vedantic philosophy? Advaita Vedanta is all I ever hear about in discussions of Hinduism with non-Hindus and in my reading about it. That sort of leads me to assume that it's a rather popular philosophy, but it also seems a bit abstract for the average farmboy, who I would tend to suppose might believe something a bit different.

But perhaps my assumptions about average farmboys lacking the philosophical depth to grasp the abstractions of Advaita Vedanticism are just due to my Christian background. Christians who reject the doctrine of the Trinity are usually regarded as heretical, but it's such an abstract doctrine that almost all Christians, when asked to explain it, end up teaching one of the many heresies that come close to Trinitarianism but have been judged to not quite make it. It takes a very skilled philosopher to understand true Trinitarian doctrine, and the average Christian just doesn't.

Until today, I had never heard of the ideas you describe under the headings Vishishtadvaita and Dvaita as being prevalent ideas within Hinduism. Westerners seem to only care about Advaita Vedanta rather than these other Vedantic schools. How many people believe in each of them?

[Suraj]

So, this sounds like the current situation among people who practice some form of the ancient folk religions of India (which the world calls Hinduism) might vary quite a bit from Vedic religion (which is how you identified Hinduism) and include a great deal of belief in multiple real gods. Would that be a fair assessment?

This is not strictly true. Hinduism is not as polarised as that, in fact modern day Hinduism is a very interesting and chaotic mix of all the various sects. The original Vedic religion is still very much the foundation of all main beliefs and tenets of Hinduism: karma reincarnation, guru-student tradition, dharma, bhakti, joint family structure, religious hymns. Most of the 'gods' are Vedic deities and Hindus generally do have an understanding that there is only one god, but who has many forms.

Those who are actually following sects such as Vaishnavism, Shivaism, Shaktism and Smartism will be much more acquainted with the Vedas. They may not read them directly, but will learn about their central teachings indirectly through the Gita and Agamas and will be familiar with many famous Vedic hymns. Their practices are based on variations on Yoga(Vedic) and their way of living is centred on dharma. So there is definitely a very strong Vedic spirit in these religions.

As for the practitioners of pure Vedic religion. There are literally hundreds of sects today which purely base themselves on Vedas, such as the Arya Samaj. The Arya Samaj conduct their entire life based on the Vedas. They offer Vedic education just as it was offered in ancient times. They try to recreate the entire Vedic lifestyle.

There are various Ashrams in India which live pure Vedic lifestyles, which have thousands of followers. However, they certainly aren't mainstream.

It is really hard to describe modern day Hinduism, because it's such a chaotic mix. Here some very common features of modern day Hinduism

1) The stories of the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata are well known to virtually all Hindus. They are also familiar with some of the stories of the Puranas.

2) The Gita is is the most popular scripture. This is a good thing, because the Gita is an excellent summary on the Vedas. Although I doubt if many Hindus even read the Gita.

3) Very ritualistic, there are dozens and dozens of religious occasions, thousands of temples where people go worship idols(most Hindus have temples inside their homes as well) and astrology and vaastu(Indian feng shui) are often consulted by Hindus. As well various rituals done everyday.

4) Huge respect for Gurus and priests: The people are learned in Hinduism and who have read the scriptures are accorded a lot of respect by Hindus. This is ironic, because most Hindus themselves don't read the scriptures.

5) A basic lack of knowledge of the philosophy of Hinduism. It is not uncommon for Hindus to not know what the Vedas and Upanishads are, and they are pretty much of the core of Hinduism.

6) Surprisingly, Yoga and Meditation is uncommon amongst Hindus. I haven't met many Hindus who meditate or do Yoga. However, this is changing only recently, due to Yoga being popularized in the India by a man called Swami Ramdev. Now every television channel in India has a segment on Yoga in the morning and there is also fully fledged spiritual channels showing Yoga and meditation throughout the day.

The situation is slowly changing with Hindus with more and more becoming familiar with the Vedas, but still the majority of Hindus are stil ignorant of them.

If that is the case, then roughly what percentage of people that the world calls Hindus fall into the more superstitious category and what percentage fall more into the Vedic category?

I don't have statistics at hand, but I would say a majority of Hindus today are very superstitious, ritualistic and superficial. I find it difficult identifying with them.

[Suraj]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Friend Suraj & want to be Hindu,
frubals to both except for Suraj could not frubal again soon.
Agree that like most of the population never read the texts of Sanatan Dharma and whatever have tried are not good translations. Must admit that friend Suraj has a knack in *Story Telling* and can write well and look forward to his commentaries on the various texts in future. Am also sure that He can try writing e-books to start to spread dharma as he likes/wants to.
Love & rgds

Thanks Zenzero!

Yes, I am often frustrated with the translations I read. As a general rule of thumb if you want reliable translations get modern translations by Indian translators, preferably Pundits. This is especially true for the Vedas, they are so badly translated usually, that they are virtually impossible to read and the meaning is completely changed. I have noticed a common translation error is to translate certain words as animals, when actually the word does not mean that animal!

I consider the worst translation to be the ones by Max Muller and Griffith, the ones available online.

[want to be hindu]

Originally Posted by Worshipper

Where do the other 20% stand?

They could be tribals, atheists or any number of options.

Originally Posted by Worshipper

Also, what sort of percentages are there for each of these three main schools of Vedantic philosophy? Advaita Vedanta is all I ever hear about in discussions of Hinduism with non-Hindus and in my reading about it. That sort of leads me to assume that it's a rather popular philosophy, but it also seems a bit abstract for the average farmboy, who I would tend to suppose might believe something a bit different.

I can not give you exact percentages. Most Hindus (I have read over 50%)are Vishnava and most of them are Dualistic. I think that is is very hard to poll the small villages in India to find the out the beliefs of the average farmboy.

The intelligenca ( I am not one of them , just a simple fool) in the west for the most part has shown the most interest in the non-dual view of Hinduism. The Hare Krishna Movement, The International Society for Krishna Consciousness are Dualist.
So even in the west you can find all three schools of Vedanta.