The Pandavas Dependency on Krishna (moral, Moses, faith, moral)

[Pariah]

*Only those familiar with the Mahabharata epic should respond*

Krishna was essential to the Pandavas victory over the Kauravas at Kurukshetra. Or was he? Do you think the Pandavas may have won without the support of Madhusudhana?

It also speaks volumes about the "misguided" (depending on how you view the battle - imagine if the Kauravas had won and they had written the Mahabharata...) yet valorous attempt by the Kauravas. Despite fighting the Lord and the Pandavas they held their own, and yet the Pandavas barely scratched by (or did they?).

What do you think?
Did the Pandavas thoroughly trounce the Kauravas such that Krishna's assistance was only fringe activity, or was Krishna the only reason the Pandavas made it out of Kurukshetra alive?

( Come on! Let's revive the Hinduism directory together! )

[Hema]

I say that it was because of Krishna. I think the main message being sent was that if you have the Lord on your side you can win any battle. If you choose the Lord over worldly things especially! It teaches that we must have faith in God. Duryodhana doubted the power of Krishna and he chose a huge army over having Krishna on his side. It shows that The Lord is more powerful than any army.

[Pariah]

But isn't the ability of the Kauravas to stand against them for so long example enough of their courage and fighting prowess?

Plus, the Pandavas weren't all shiny and enlightened - the entire epic is a struggle between morality and loyalty, such as Arjuna's slaying of Karna against the laws of war (although, this was revenge for Abhimanyu, but nevertheless... you would expect better of him).

[Moses the God Archetype*]

WHAT IS YOU POINT HERE.......to deride the pandavas for them having faith in lord krsna and beliveing in him, thus teaching us that example here in kali-yug or to aurgue some other make belive possblity which does'nt exist in this time frame......................PS; I do understand the morality issue here but that is karma and that's unchangable according to that persons state.

[Hema]

I think it also shows that even if we have to stand up against our family to protect Dharma, we must do so.

[Pariah]

Originally Posted by Hema

I think it also shows that even if we have to stand up against our family to protect Dharma, we must do so.

That's definitely one of the main issues in the entire epic - loyalty versus dharma.

So far, no one has put forth any consolation for the kauravas... how can their courage and their determination be derailed through their lack of faith?

So far, no one has put forth any convincing arguments one way or the other.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Pariah

*Only those familiar with the Mahabharata epic should respond*

Well, I'm familiar with the Mahabharata - I've read it and know who all the players are to whom you refer - but I don't remember the details.

Are you saying only those Hindus who are familiar should respond? Or can anyone familiar with the greatest story ever told respond?

If the former, forgive the intrusion and I will bow out.

Originally Posted by Moses the God Archetype*

WHAT IS YOU POINT HERE.......to deride the pandavas for them having faith in lord krsna and beliveing in him, thus teaching us that example here in kali-yug or to aurgue some other make belive possblity which does'nt exist in this time frame.

I didn't think that his point was deride faith at all. In fact, from Pariah's post I got the impression that it wasn't Lord Krishna who won the battle for the Pandavas, but rather their faith in Lord Krishna that got them through it. And faith in their Dharma. Faith that gave them the courage to fight instead of despair. Such that they used all their cunning, and bravery and strength and endurance to finally prevail. God inspires us but in the end, humans still have to do the work.

Of course, I could just be reading what I want to see into the story.

[Pariah]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Well, I'm familiar with the Mahabharata - I've read it and know who all the players are to whom you refer - but I don't remember the details.

Are you saying only those Hindus who are familiar should respond? Or can anyone familiar with the greatest story ever told respond?

You certainly are an exception to the rule, but Indian culture and history, although growing with the current expansion of the Indian economy, is lost on the West save for intellectuals. As long as you understand the issues, you are free to

Therefore, I assumed only Hindus would know about the epic itself, let alone the specific stories.

I didn't think that his point was deride faith at all. In fact, from Pariah's post I got the impression that it wasn't Lord Krishna who won the battle for the Pandavas, but rather their faith in Lord Krishna that got them through it. And faith in their Dharma. Faith that gave them the courage to fight instead of despair. Such that they used all their cunning, and bravery and strength and endurance to finally prevail. God inspires us but in the end, humans still have to do the work.

The second good response (the first being Hema's).
However, compare this to Milton's Paradise Lost - Satan, portrayed by Milton, is a powerful and charismatic leader, overshadowed only by God himself, therefore inflating the power of God as being even above The Accuser.

I see the opposite in this epic. Despite fighting against Krishna (who technically never actually fought, but he was necessary to the survival of the Pandavas), the Kauravas wielded a seemingly invincible defense. In the same way, does this not show the Kauravas a greater light than the Pandavas, who depended on Krishna for help?

Of course, I could just be reading what I want to see into the story.

Who doesn't it? And if you couldn't - I don't think it would be as great as it is today. All great art raises more questions than it does answers.

[Don Penguinoini]

They werent enilghtened but with god on their side they were. Whoever has god on their side come out victorious.