Ritvik, Siksa, and Diksa. (Jesus Christ, ritual, mystic, tradition, follower)

[JivanaKrishnaDasa]

This thread may confuse some here, but I started it so that Paraprakrti and I can discuss some stuff. It seemed more appropriate to start a new thread so that we dont "hijack" another thread.

Paraprakrti, The reason I left ISKCON is actually due to some of this reason of confusion about Gurus and who is bonafide and who is not. This is definately a sensitive subject for some, but I love to discuss it. Whether or not there is written or documented proof of whether Srila Prabhupada left permission to the GBC or certain Swamis to initiate Devotees is actually irrelevant. What is relavant, is that our Sampradaya is based on a Disciplic succession of Living Gurus, (key word being Living). Some believe that the succession ends with Srila Prabhupada, which I beleive is ridiculous and offensive. Some believe that Srila Prabhupada only gave permission to some to initiate, (which also does not make sense). Whatever the case, Srila Prabhupada was a pure Devotee and of course if he were still here, would want us to continue the tradition of our Rupanuga Sampradaya. That tradition being, that you MUST have a living Guru. I had taken initiation from a ISKCON Swami years ago who actually later fell down. It was at that time I decided to seek out another living Guru who was a Bonafide follower of the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There is so much to be said about this subject, so rather than I ramble on and on, maybe if you have some specific questions, then I can maybe share more of my findings.

[JivanaKrishnaDasa]

Also a note to add, is that I love ISKCON and believe in it still. ISKCON is a wonderful institution for Krishna Consciousness. I may not agree with its Politics, but that doesnt mean that I will throw the baby out with the bath water. Just thought I should clarify that. I have many friends and Gurukuli friends that are still involved in ISKCON.

[Paraprakrti]

You stress, "Living Guru"

I stress... Srila Prabhupada Lives!

Prabhupada explained this. There is no question of not living. The Guru is always there. Here is an example:

Tamala Krsna: Can a Christian in this age, without a spiritual master, but by reading the Bible and following Jesus's words, reach the...

Prabhupada: When you read Bible, you follow spiritual master. How can you say without? As soon as you read Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ, that means you are following spiritual master. So where is the opportunity of being without spiritual master?

Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living spiritual master.

Prabhupada: Spiritual master is not the question of... Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal…

Taken from the Seattle, October 2nd, 1968 "Lectures & Classes"


The "MUST" of a Living Guru is there in Prabhupada. To think otherwise is ridiculous and offensive. But this is not to speak of your guru. For I do not know him, therefore do not think that I am attacking you or your guru in any way. Perhaps this is my way of playing it safe rather than *possibly* succumbing to another false guru. Nevertheless, I have studied for nearly two years under Prabhupada and, in my mind, have accepted him as my spiritual master. With all the corruption that has been in ISKCON, I am reluctant to listen to anyone who poses as Diksa Guru under Prabhupada, seeing that Prabhupada initiated none in such a manner. The desire to be Diksa Guru is not itself justification to be one. If the qualities thereof are not fully developed then there is no question of fulfilling such a desire because such a desire is thus done only out of puffed up ego. Is it so difficult to accept Prabhupada as the eternal spiritual master? It would eliminate any chance of guru corruption. Consider how much tragedy would have been avoided if people only accepted initiation as Prabhupada’s disciple.
I understand though, for your sake, you will defend the position of your spiritual master, whom I am not debating personally. If you have a bona fide guru, that is wonderful.

[JivanaKrishnaDasa]

I dont consider my Guru to be different at all from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada does still live in his books. However our Sampradaya has always been about Sadhu and Sanga, Saints and Scriptures. The Srimad Bhagavatam has been around since the beginning of time, does that mean we dont need a living Guru? I agree with you that Srila Prabhupada is alive but he is serving Sri Radha and Sri Krishna right now and is not here in this material world physically. Guru is ultimately one, the form of Guru is in essense, Krishna himself. Technically Guru is everywhere, but there are many different forms of Guru. The tradition of our Rupanuga Sampradaya has always been to have a lving Guru (in physical body form). The reason for this is because you can take 10 Bhagavad Gitas and distribute them to 10 different Devotees and get 10 different interpretations. Even the purports themselves are up for interpretations, hence why there are so many problems in organizations. This is where the living Gurudeva is a must. We take the questions to him, and whatever he says, goes. He is the living word. Sastra is nothing without the living word (or living Guru) to coincide with it. I hope this makes sense. Anyway, people that were close to Srila Prabhupada understood his instruction, and his instruction was for his Disciples to go to Srila Sridhar Maharaj for instruction and example after he left his body. Some sincere Devotees did this, and some did not. My Guru, Srila Govinda Maharaj, is Srila Sridhar Maharajs successor. So you see, I have kept in touch with the living line of our Sampradaya. Ultimately its up to the person to choose what they want to do. However, I can say, when I took Diksa from an ISKCON Swami (who later fell down), and then having took initiation again from my current Gurudeva, I felt a huge difference. I do believe that my Gurudeva is a Pure Vaisnava, and to have been given the Holy name from him, has helped my spiritual life infinitely. Im not sure if this answers your questions or not, but believe me, I humbly studied about this for 7 years and found this to be true.

[Paraprakrti]

You imply that people close to Prabhupada knew that he had appointed them guru. Unfortunately such conjecture isn't going to convince me especially when everything Prabhupada said and wrote shows otherwise. Srila Prabhupada was no mystic. Everything he said was very clear cut and required no interpretation on our part. I don't know where you get the idea that his purports can be interpretted different ways. His purports explain why they cannot be interpretted different ways. That is why Prabhupada's translations and purports are so important. Now, supposed gurus are coming and interpretting Srila Prabhupada's words and then saying that this is what Srila Prabhupada meant. No, Prabhupada meant what he said. It is meant to be taken AS IT IS. Case closed.

Here is an excerpt from Srila Prabhupada's Will:

"The executive directors who have herein been designated are appointed for life. In the event of death or failure to act for any reason of any of the said directors, a successor director or directors may be appointed by the remaining directors, provided the new director is my initiated disciple following strictly all the rules and regulations of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness as detailed in my books, and provided that there are never less than three (3) or more than five (5) executive directors acting at one time."


I put it in bold and enlarged and italicized the word "my". If this isn't clear as to what Prabhupada's intentions are, then I don't know what is.
The reasoning you are giving is not based on what Srila Prabhupada has said or written. You can find various verses from Sastra to defend your point and I could come back with other verses from Sastra to defend mine. Now, the deciding factor will be what THE GURU's intentions are. If you are going to deny Srila Prabhupada by going over his head, then this whole thing will collapse. If Srila Prabhupada is in fact wrong, then be happy being wrong. Srila Prabhupada has said that he is ready to go to hell for Lord Caitanya. This is the type of attitude we should all have. If Srila Prabhupada has deceived us, then it is the most beneficial deceit! We are his eternal devotees and we should accept what he says, verbatim.
I apologize if I have made any offences toward you. I would like to note again that I cannot personally speak for your position, nor am I attempting to. This is just how I see it.

[JivanaKrishnaDasa]

I think that its difficult for me to put words to paper to describe the realizations I have. Srila Prabhupada has not decieved us or been contradictory at all. I think that better understanding can be made if you trace Srila Prabhupadas roots and Learn about his Gurudeva and his associates. I understand your devotion to Srila Prabhupada, I also feel much devotion to him as well. But it seems as though your conclusion is that, all we need is Srila Prabhupada and his books. So does our Guru Parampara end at Prabhupada? Is there now no need for a Guru? I believe that you are sincere, and are just trying to understand the whole picture. Its not until you broaden your scope outside of ISKCON, that you will understand. I was also in the same boat as you a few years back. I didnt understand, and I felt the only comfort I had was to just keep reading Prabhupadas books and praying to him. But then one day, I realized that the people in charge of ISKCON, were a little less than honest and there are many apparent problems in the organization. Regardless of these problems, ISKCON is STILL a wonderful insitution for Krishna Consciousness. However, I lost faith in the leaders of ISKCON and began my search for something more. Its when I began deep study of the Guru Parampara preceeding Srila Prabhupada that I began to understand the how big the picture really was. I studied about Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, and his son (Prabhupadas Gurudeva) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj. I learned the the foremost disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Srila Bhativedanta Swami (Prabhupada). I decided to study more about Srila Sridhar Maharaj and found that there was a intimate relationship between Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaj, that most people did not know about. In fact, when Prabhupada took his first disciples to India, he took them to Sridhars math. He also instructed them to take any instruction given to them from Srila Sridhar Maharaj. They stayed at his Math and took instruction from him. Anyways, after studying more and finding more and more reference to this close relationship I realized that this Math was still following the line of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and our Rupanuga Sampradaya. I came in contact with my Gurudeva who is the named successor of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who is Srila Govinda Maharaj. I also learned of the intimate relationship of my Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada. My Guru was young, but actually lived with Srila Prabhupada. In fact, my Gurudeva was the first one to help Prabhupada distribute his very first issues of " Back to Godhead" magazine. After reading more and more I realized that Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, and Srila Govinda Maharaj were very close and even lived together for many years in India previously before Prabhupada came to America. So it was at this point that I joined this Math, and continue to follow the line that Srila Prabhupada taught us to follow. This was my conclusion.

[Paraprakrti]

I understand...

Perhaps one day I will come to realize the continuing of the guru line in succession from Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

It has been very nice conversing with you.

Hare Krsna!

[JivanaKrishnaDasa]

Well the reason why I called this issue not really a big deal is because we are all on the same side,and our goal is the same, service of Mahaprabhu and Radha and Krishna. Some choose one route, others choose another. I believe we are brothers of the same spiritual family. I dont see any difference in what we do or what we are aiming for. If I have offfended you please accept my apologies. I never want to offend a devotee of Krishna.

[JivanaKrishnaDasa]

Hey I forgot to ask you what temple you regularly attend? I use to live in the Los Angeles temple years ago. I stayed in Madhava Swamis house next to the temple for a while. He was my ISKCON Guru before he fell down.

[Paraprakrti]

Originally Posted by JivanaKrishnaDasa

Well the reason why I called this issue not really a big deal is because we are all on the same side,and our goal is the same, service of Mahaprabhu and Radha and Krishna. Some choose one route, others choose another. I believe we are brothers of the same spiritual family. I dont see any difference in what we do or what we are aiming for. If I have offfended you please accept my apologies. I never want to offend a devotee of Krishna.

I very much agree.

You have not offended me at all. I am very glad to see another Krsna devotee on here. I go to a few different message boards in order to discuss these things with others and until now have not encountered another Vaisnava. I refer to myself as a Vaisnava only out of my feelings of sincerity. I cannot actually think myself in such a way further than in these feelings I hold because I do not fully follow the principles. I must therefore offer my humble obeisances to you for living the life I still only endeavor to live.