The Swaminarayan Faith (ritual, Earth, tradition, incarnation, followers)

[celina]

Some history on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya from a poster online:

Srivaishnavam and Swaminarayan

To clear the queiry on the links between the sect of Ramanuja (srivaishanam) and Swaminarayan, i shall explain in terms of my own knowledge. Now to the Swaminarayn devotees Sahajananda swami (swaminarayan) is the founder of their sect, they beleive him to be supreme lord (to seem even the source of Krishna/narayana) who took incarnation in a brahmin family. Although the swaminarayans accept Sahajanand swami as the start of thier Guru Pramapara (as they beleiv he is God), they accept that he took Diksha (initiation) (just as Rama did From Vishvamitra and Krishna from Sandipani) from a Guru. According to the history of the sect, The young Swaminarayan went on a pilgamage of India during which he did penance and enquired on the various aspects of Vedanta, and apparanltly was not satisfied untill he arrived in Gujarat and met Ramananda who he accepted as Guru. THIS RAMANADA SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH RAMANADACHARYA WHO FOUNDED THE RAMA-BHAKTHI SECTS OF NORTH INDIA WHO LIVED A FEW CENTURIES BEFORE SWAMINARAYAN.

Now Ramananda (who by the way is believed to be udhava incarnate) to like swaminarayan had went on all india search for the truth. being unsatisfied with Mayavad/advaita, Ramanda arrived in Srirangam; the headquarters of Srivashnavism and caaried out some service there. Accodring to swaminaryan sect history Sri Ramanujacharaya (who had dissappeared centuries before) appeared to Ramananda in a vision and initated into Vaishnavism.. Adopting the Vishitadvaita philosophy of Ramanuja, Ramananda then goes to Gujarat and starts a devotinal association , and according to members of the sect prepares for swaminarayans arrival.

Upon initiation Swaminarayn soon becomes the head of Ramanda's fellowship and accepts the philosophy of Ramanuja (visistadvaita), and i think he 'ellabotrates' on it, so today the philosphy of swaminarayan is called 'navya Visitadvaita'.

So in summary the Swaminarayans trace their Parampara to Ramanuja (i doubt if this is accepted by Srivaishnavas) and adopt his philosophy. Also in the Akshar Purushotam branch of Swaminarayan, swami Gunatitanand (akshar) seems to occupy a similar position to Sri in Srivaishnavam. Apart from that the swaminarayans are distinct from Srivashvas, as they dont share the same tilak mark, dont chant the Same mantra, dont chant Divya Prabhandanam, etc....

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/304596-post10.html

[celina]

Originally Posted by decentindian

The Shikshaptri gives clear guidance as to the true intention of Swaminarayan that of bhakti toward Shree Krishna.

just so ya'll know the reason in the shikshapatri it says worship krishna as parmatma is because when sahajanand swami(swaminarayan)was being named he had to senior names ghanshyam and krishna. That will answer your question. It is a vedic tradition to worship guru as a god.

[Aupmanyav]

Belief, people belief million things, some of them quite weird. So Ramananda was Uddhava and Sahajananda was 'Akshara Brahma'. There is no end to what people believe. Actually, all, you, me, Ramananda, Sahajananda, is 'Brahman'. 'Ekameva Adviteeyam' (There is only one, no second). Even the dog in the street.

yo māḿ paśyati sarvatra, sarvaḿ ca mayi paśyati;
tasyāhaḿ na praṇaśyāmi, sa ca me na praṇaśyati.

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.

samaḿ sarveṣu bhūteṣu, tiṣṭhantaḿ parameśvaram;
vinaśyatsv avinaśyantam, yaḥ paśyati sa paśyati.

One who sees Brahman in all bodies, and who understands that the indestructible is never destroyed in the destructible, actually sees.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne, brāhmaṇe gavi hastini;
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca, paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinah.

The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater.

One who sees differences, really does not see.

[decentindian]

"just so ya'll know the reason in the shikshapatri it says worship krishna as parmatma is because when sahajanand swami(swaminarayan)was being named he had to senior names ghanshyam and krishna. That will answer your question. It is a vedic tradition to worship guru as a god."

That's funny because I thought when Swaminarayan said Krishna he meant Krishna. How silly of me, I should have realised that when Swaminarayan says Krishna he means Swaminarayan. LOL "

Swaminarayan clearly identifies who Krishna is in the very first verse of the Shikshapatri:

"...........Lord Shree Krishna, on whose left resides Radha and in whose heart resides Lakshmi, and who performs Lila with His Bhaktas in Vrndavan."

Here Swaminarayan tells us who Krishna is, then in Shlok 108 (note the importance of this number, 108, in Sanatan Dharma) Swaminarayan says:

"hat Ishwara is Lord Shree Krishna: Parabrahman, Bhagawan, Purushottam, our beloved deity and cherished God. He is worthy of worship and devotion by all, and is the source of all incarnations."

How can he be referring to himself?? He commonly went by the name Shajanand Swami, why would he say Krishna ? His intention was not to confuse, when he said Krishna he meant Krishna, the same Krishna he described in the opening shlok of the Shikshapatri.

In addition how can you say Swaminarayan is the cause of all incarnations when in that same shlok 108 he said Krishna is?

I urge you to read the Shikshapatri literally, don't try to make inferences, don't read others' commentary, read it literally and understand Sahjanand Swami's real intentions for his Sampraday.

Shree Krsna Sharanam Mama

[celina]

Swaminarayan Bhagwan is the ultimate reality; there is plenty of proof and evidence of this. When Swaminarayan uses the word ‘Krishna’ in the Shikshapatri he is clearly referring to himself. Obviously he did not use his own name for many reasons. First, he wrote the book. Secondly, Krishna was extremely popular and it would seem awkward. Thirdly, Krishna in Sanskrit can also be derived to mean ‘God’.

Has Krishna Bhagwan said in his own words “I am God and no other is beyond myself”?

[Aupmanyav]

Celina, you have not read my post, otherwise you would not have asked this question. This is what Lord Krishna said, 'The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater' (Srimad BhagawadGeeta, Chapter 5, verse 18). He said there is no difference between Swaminarayan or Ramakrishna or a dog or a dog-eater (chandala). Brahman constitutes them all. Even Ravana, Kamsa, Nadir Shah, or Hitler, were none other than Brahman.

Chhandogya Upanishad says, 'Yatha, saumya, ekena mrit-pindena sarvam mrinmayam vijnatam syat vacharambhanam vikaro nama-dheyam, mrittiketi eva satyam.' (http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/chhand/ch_2.html, verse 4)

(Son, as by knowing one clod of earth all things made of earth are known, though we give different names to different shapes; they are really, earth, only this is truth. - Dialogue between Sage Uddalaka Aruni and his son, Shvetaketu.)

[decentindian]

"Swaminarayan Bhagwan is the ultimate reality; there is plenty of proof and evidence of this"

Show me this "proof", from the scriptures.

"When Swaminarayan uses the word ‘Krishna’ in the Shikshapatri he is clearly referring to himself"

He clearly is not, In the very first verse of the Shikshapatri Swaminarayan says who Krishna is. Swaminarayan describes Krishna as the one who has Radha by his side, in whose heart resides Lakshmi, and plays in Vrndavan with his bhaktas.

"Krishna was extremely popular and it would seem awkward"

Why would it seem awkward? Did his devotees at the time he was present doubt him? Did Gunatitanad Swami doubt him?

Krishna in Sanskrit can also be derived to mean ‘God’

So ? Maybe thats because Krishna is God, LOL

"Has Krishna Bhagwan said in his own words “I am God and no other is beyond myself”?"

Yes he has, in the Bhagavad Gita, and the Srimad Bhagavatam:

"I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed."

"I am the only enjoyer and the only object of sacrifice. Those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down."

"He who knows Me as the unborn, as the beginningless, as the Supreme Lord of all the worlds--he, undeluded among men, is freed from all sins."

The above are a few verses from the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna spoke to Arjun, on the eve of battle in the Mahabharat.
He most obviously claims to be GOD,

Not surprising really, Swaminarayan said the same, his devotees did not listen!!!

Shree Krishna Sharanam mama

[celina]

Read this carfully for I will explain it all.

To understand BAPS you must first understand the basics of hinduism in genral which was first refered to as sanatan dharma, meaning eternal truth or the right way. Underneath hinduism falls every religion ranging from judaism to atheism(belief that there is no god). Any religion that has good morals and makes people better and not worse is a subset of hindusim. Even the vedas have a chapter which was written by a rushimuni who did not believe in god.

Underneath all of this is vaishnavism. What differs vaishnavism from the rest of the subsets is the belief in the five eternal entities namely; Jiv, Ishwaar, Maya, Brahm(do not mix this brahma, the creator of the universe), parabrhama. Underneath vaishnavism fall ram, krishna, all avtars of vishnu, and swaminarayan. The reason swaminarayan falls underneath this sub-subset is becuase we too belive in the five entities. but we will dwelve into that later.for now i will go onto the five entities...

The five entites are..
Jiv-which is our souls

ishwar- a jiv wich has done some great karma and has been give a resposibility of taking care of his particular seva(job). Krishna, Ram, Brahma, vishnu, mahesh, agni, vayu, indra...all of these entities fall underneath this category becuase they are still affected by the next entity. ~(as i sidenote, every refernce of ram, krishna,etc... in any hindu scripture is as ishwar and not parabrahm). Therefore if a jiv can be elevated into the status of ishwar, this means that in your past lives you could have been krishna, or ram, or shiv. the catch is that from this state you cannot go above maya, it is only possible to go above maya and liberate yourself as a jiv.

Maya- jiv and ishwar are the only entites that are affected by it.
An intresting anecdote pertaining to this matter is that when Arjun wanted to go se parabrahm (becuase krishna is not parabrhma, he is ishwar) he asked krishna for a way to go through maya to meet him. In return krishna gave him the sudarshan chakra which has the brightness of 10,000 suns. Arjun said this is more than i need to get through maya, i could have sufficed with a mere lamp. Krishna said that you will need it, and arjun did. The moment he entered maya the sudarshan chakras light went down to a flicker.
As i was saying, jiv and ishwar are the only entites affected by maya. maya can be thought of as the matrix, its everything around you, anything that you are attached to, any temporary pleasures, anything that will not go with you when you die, basically almost everything. All emotions are part of maya; greed, anger, lust, ego, the senses, everything.

Brahm-this is not the creator of the universe but infact the entity in which all universes reside in. i am not refering to the brahma that is part of the trinity with vishnu and shiv. this entity is the one in which everything resides, this entity is the abode of god, heaven.

Parabrahm-This is god, the supreme being, swaminarayan.

Now what are we. we are the souls. we are not, and i repeat, we are not the mind or the body. these will both perish when we die. it is even built into our very language i.e. by leg hurts, i HAVE an headache. Notice that we posses the headache, therefore we are not the head(mind). also notice that you posses the leg, you are not the leg(body). a very confusing concept to grasp.

i will now continue...

we believe that swaminarayan is parabrahm. the reason that he says in all of his scriptures to worship krishna is becuase that is whom everybody worshipped at that time. If Swaminarayan came along and said that he was god, well he could not say that he was god because he does not posses any ego. he is above maya. he has no anger, lust, greed, attachment. he does not care for the materialistic world. As for his legitimacy, swaminarayan has just as many miracles as krishna does. the only difference is that he changed peoples lives for there better while krishna was there to resolve the issue of kansa and the pandav vs. kurav war. i am not saying that worshipping krishna is bad, it is better then what most people do, but you must realize that with krishna you will still be below maya and therefore not permenantly liberated. you will still be in the cycle of birth and death, you will still be in maya.

Pramukh Swami is brahma. there are many saying, one of which i will list below

guru govind dono khade kisko lago upay
baliyaari gurudev ki jine govinda batay

~both god and guru stand next to each other, to whom do i bow down to
i bown down to the guru for without him, how would i know who god was

at this time, tulsidas was refering to god as being krishna, but the essence still remains. You need someone to guide you, someone to explain the scriptures and guide on the right path. we are now smart enough to decipher the scriptures and find out for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. And what better guru then the one in which god himself resides in. Pramukh Swami. He is not god, but through him god works.

Jai Swaminarayan

[Ram]

I think it is time someone settled this argument once and for all.

I am a follower of the Swaminarayan sampraday, the true branch installed by Swaminarayan bhagvan himself. This is written in the Sikshapatri (the original can be found in Oxford, England. Baps, please read it !! Don't read the parts which fit with your idea. You adhere to it all, not pick and choose.)

Swaminaryan bhagvan wrote in the Sikshaptri that anyone who does not follow the Shikshapatri is outside the sampraday. Any Swaminarayan saint must be initiated by either of the two acharays installed by Swaminarayan bhagvan. Baps saints are not. Therefore they are not following the Sikshapatri and thus are vimukh and not part of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They can spend as much money as they want building magnificent temples, but according to Lord Swaminarayan, Baps is not part of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They are a pariah sampraday. They have adapted the original Shikshapatri to fit their organisation. If they adhere to it all, the swamis are not true Swaminarayan swamis, are they Baps??

Secondly, Swaminarayan, Krishna, Ram, Nar-Naryan, matsya avtar, kurma avtar etc. are incarnations of Purushottam Narayan. They are all equal. This Purushottam Narayan is also known as Vasudev, Krushna (different to Krishna of Gokul) in the Bhagvatam. Every Swaminarayan temple (the true branch) will have Ganpati and Hanuman murtis. They may have murtis of other incarnations such as Ram, Krishna, etc. depends on their individual choice.

We hold Swaminarayan bhagvan dear to our hearts because we have chosen Him as our Ishtadev. Similarly, Krishna devotees hold Krishna bhagvan dear to their hearts and they should, similar to that of a pativrata lady holding her husband dear to her heart and not other men. Similarly, Ram devotees hold Ram bhagvan dear to their hearts. The reason for choosing a single incarnation to meditate upon is so that meditation is easier. One incarnation, one image, single minded devotion! All these devotees will go to the same place when they achieve atyantik kalyan (moksha) regardless of whether they are Ram devotees, Krishna devotees or Swaminarayan devotees.

Any non Swaminarayan devotees, if you have any questions about the original sampraday, i will try to answer these or get the answers from other people and post them here.

Please forgive me if i have offended anyone but the above is the truth and it has to be said so that other people who are not familiar with the Swaminarayan samraday know the truth!

Jai Shree Swaminarayan
Jai NarNarayan Dev
Jai Radha Krisna Dev
Jai Lakshmi Narayan Dev

[Aupmanyav]

So Baps is not Swaminarayana and the two saints are. Please tell us who these two saints are? Are they the Vadtal Swamis? Such gurus, who declare themselves to be Bhagwan or whose followers declare them to be Bhagwan have harmed Hinduism immensely. The line I love the most is 'Guru ko maro Goli' (shoot the guru). They are heretics and not real gurus. Most are engaged in dishonest financial transactions or sexual crimes. They take advantage of the simplicity of hindus. Hindus should remember that everyone of them is a part of 'Brahman'.