Religious Education Forum  

Welcome to Religious Forums
Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!

Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Discuss Individual Religions / Other Revealed Religions / Gnosticism
Reload this Page Gender in Gnosticism
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
Page 3 of 8 < 123 45 > Last »
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-25-2009, 07:35 PM
Humanistheart Offline
Religion: Atheist
Title:Restricted
  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ca
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,203
Frubals: 1292098
Humanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Humanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
Simon Peter said to them "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so tha tshe too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Gospel of Thomas 114

Hmmm...
This was the last verse in the Gospel of Thomas and is widely accepted as a later addition to the text, as it convey's an idea unlike the rest of that Gospel. A sharp contrast from an earlier part of the gospel, saying that men shall become like women and women like men.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-25-2009, 07:38 PM
Humanistheart Offline
Religion: Atheist
Title:Restricted
  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ca
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,203
Frubals: 1292098
Humanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Humanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttons* View Post
Mr. Cheese, I must spread more frubals before I can give them back to you

Awesome thread!!
I got the same message, lol.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-25-2009, 08:06 PM
Oberon Online!
Religion: Mostly Agnostic
Title:Uber Member
  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern US
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,813
Frubals: 1937575
Oberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubal
Oberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubal
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanistheart View Post
This was the last verse in the Gospel of Thomas and is widely accepted as a later addition to the text, as it convey's an idea unlike the rest of that Gospel. A sharp contrast from an earlier part of the gospel, saying that men shall become like women and women like men.
No it is not "widely" considered a later addition. There are some who argue this, but for no good reason. It displays a typical "gnostic" attitude toward gender and progression via spiritual progress. Gnostic texts are typically hostile toward the body and toward sex, and women were widely associated with temptations and evils and whatnot. There are no textual reasons for cutting it out, as neither language nor style differ from the rest of the text in such a way as to be considered an interpolation.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-25-2009, 08:27 PM
Humanistheart Offline
Religion: Atheist
Title:Restricted
  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ca
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,203
Frubals: 1292098
Humanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Humanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offHumanistheart likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
No it is not "widely" considered a later addition. There are some who argue this, but for no good reason. It displays a typical "gnostic" attitude toward gender and progression via spiritual progress. Gnostic texts are typically hostile toward the body and toward sex, and women were widely associated with temptations and evils and whatnot. There are no textual reasons for cutting it out, as neither language nor style differ from the rest of the text in such a way as to be considered an interpolation.
I've yet to read any commentary on this line of that gospel that did not come with the suggestion that this is out of place, so I've gotten the impression that widely is apt. Still, uou might be correct in your analysis. If this is the case, can you site other examples like this that would confirm that the gnostic texts generally dipicted women as temptations and or evil whatnot as you said?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-25-2009, 09:53 PM
Oberon Online!
Religion: Mostly Agnostic
Title:Uber Member
  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern US
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,813
Frubals: 1937575
Oberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubal
Oberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubal
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanistheart View Post
If this is the case, can you site other examples like this that would confirm that the gnostic texts generally dipicted women as temptations and or evil whatnot as you said?
Actually I mean more that women as evil was a widespread cross-cultural belief at the time, not specifically gnostic. Gnostic texts tend to show a distrust and dislike of the material world and body. Occasionaly they are specifically anti-feminist, as in the Thomas quote or the Philip line I quoted earlier in this thread.

Bart Ehrman (generally not my favorite scholar, as his popular publications are more numerous than his scholarly) actually has a fairly apt summary of what this line refers to in his book on heresies meant for the general public:

"It is virtually impossible to understand what the verse can mean withour recognizing that in the ancient world, the world of this text, people generally understood gender relations differently than we do. Today we tend to think of men and women as two kinds of the same thing. There are humans, and they are either male and female. In the ancient world, genders were not imagined like that. For ancient people, male and female were not two kinds of human; they were two degrees of human.

As we know from medical writers, philosophers, poets, and others, women in the Greek and Roman worlds [and I would add Jewish to Ehrman's list] were widely understood to be imperfect men. They were men who had not developed fully. In the womb they did not grow penises. When born, they did not develop fully, did not grow muscular, did not develop facial hair, did not acquire deep voices. Women were quite literally the weaker sex. And in a world permeated with an ideology of power and dominance, that made women subservient and, necessarily, subordinate to men...

And so, salvation for this Gospel of Thomas, which presupposes a unification of all things so that there is no up and down, in and out, male and female, requires that all divine spirits return to their place of origin. But for women to achieve this salvation, they obviously must first become male. The knowledge that Jesus reveals allows for that transformation, so that every woman who makes herself male, through understanding his teaching, will enter then into the Kingdom."

Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew pp. 63-64.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:41 AM
Mr Cheese's Avatar
Mr Cheese Online!
Religion: Gnosticism
Title:More Cheese vicar
  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Not near Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,206
Frubals: 8762744
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttons* View Post
Well... but it's a transformation rather than a suicide to rid oneself of the body in order to free the soul. It wasn't a cult, it's more of a mystic transformation. You don't have to be separate from the body, you just have to realize that your body is impermanent and imperfect. You also can't depend on it for your "being" .... or "becoming." It's simply unreliable to only depend on ones body and bend to the wills of the flesh.
I think it is more dualitites are impermanent

thus soul is impermanent, so is body as both are dualities...

Philip AND Thomas and others..speak of unification.

Through Gnosis this duality no longer exists.... all are resolved into their roots (Gospel of Mary etc)...

Thomas 22 is the most obvious....

But we can see this in the teachings of aquinas...

3 movements in the universe
straight line --male, father
circle - female , mother

mother + father= child

3rd movement is "obtuse"
the lightning serpentine movement. That which is a product of mother and father... both and yet NEITHER.

The 3rd is the Christ, the perfected that has achieved the highest level of Gnosis...

But again from a scholarly personage or stance looking at Gnostic texts one will NEVER see any of these allusions.... because scholars arent actually interested IN Gnosis...
__________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-26-2009, 05:44 AM
Mr Cheese's Avatar
Mr Cheese Online!
Religion: Gnosticism
Title:More Cheese vicar
  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Not near Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,206
Frubals: 8762744
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
No it is not "widely" considered a later addition. There are some who argue this, but for no good reason. It displays a typical "gnostic" attitude toward gender and progression via spiritual progress. Gnostic texts are typically hostile toward the body and toward sex, and women were widely associated with temptations and evils and whatnot. There are no textual reasons for cutting it out, as neither language nor style differ from the rest of the text in such a way as to be considered an interpolation.
women are associated with evil and temptations and what not?

Oh please.... that is why Gnostics worshipped Sophia, had women priests, placed women in high regard in scriptures and some groups even placed a certain woman as Yeshua's equal.....

You are just plain wrong....

I wish I could remeber, but 114 is found in another text in the nag hammadi collection, and illuminates 114 better....
__________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:13 AM
Mr Cheese's Avatar
Mr Cheese Online!
Religion: Gnosticism
Title:More Cheese vicar
  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Not near Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,206
Frubals: 8762744
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Default Yeshua the enochian Gnostic
How do you reconcile this with the Enochian Gnostic lines? those that wrote the hechalot literature... who may or may not have written Thomas....who were different to the mainstream folks you and others mention, at least this is one possibility. Frankly I still think Thomas 114 and other such illusions are pointing to a deeper truth than the literal truth you are pointing to, one that is indeed a unification of all opposites (becoming a virgin in the strictest meaning of the word). The fact that Gnostics placed such a high level on women in text and praxis really does not give value to a conclusive conclusion that women were 2nd class citizens frankly:

Jack Kilmon wrote:
I think this is an important issue often ignored in “historical Jesus
studies.” I agree with Barker and will go further to label the historical
Jesus (sorry, mythers) as an Enochian rather than a Mosaic Jew.
Lets look at Jesus as an Enochian, like the Essenes albeit, I believe, He
differed with the Qumran folks on eschatology. Now this is lengthy but if
the hypothesis is a form of Judaism (Daniel-Enochian) from which both the
Essenes/Qumran/DSS People arose and to which Jesus also subscribed, I have
to back it up.

We have seen books depicting Jesus the sage, cynic, magicin, healer,
messiah…there is probably a book somewhere claiming he’s a Presbyterian.
He was, IMO, an apocalyptic.

If the Dead Sea Scroll corpus is a good barometer, the late 2nd temple
period saw an
emergence of Daniel-Enochian fervor. In both Daniel and the Enochian
literature, the “son of man” plays a central role.


Jesus himself, NOT ONCE, refers to himself with certainty as the Messiah
but instead refers to himself as the bar nasha/ben adam of Daniel and
Enoch…”coming on the clouds, etc.” It was Paul of Tarsus…hostile to the
Nazarenes, who conferred the name of XRISTOS on Jesus in his reconstruction
of Jesus as the Pauline “Christ Crucified.”


The cradle from which both Jewish and Christian “mysticism” arose was
Enochian apocalypticism, the same cradle from which post-destruction Ma’asei
Merkavah (which would eventually develop into Kabbala) and the Hekhalot
literature arose which deals with “mystical” ascents into heaven.


Anyone pursuing the ancient Jewish sources from which the Nazarenes arose,
should read the considerable Enochian literary corpus now available thanks
to the Qumran texts. The Books of Enoch and their related texts, Jubilees,
Giants, Weeks, Parables, Watchers, Testimonies of the 12 Patriarchs, Dreams,
etc. Enochian apocalypticism is a reflection of a Mesopotamian alternative
to Mosaic” Judaism with its focus on Enmeduranki, the 7th antediluvian king
of Sippar in the Sumerian Chronicles and a counterpart (or model) for Enoch..
There was a considerable influence by Zoroastrianism on Judaism as a result
to the Babylonian Captivity after which they brought the Enochian traditions
to Jerusalem upon the return. The Jerusalem priests at that time hated the
Enochian Jews (and it is my position that Jesus was an Enochian Jew) who
supported the Maccabees thereby gaining favor with the Hasmoneans. These
Enochian Jews became, IMO, the Essenes who subsequently developed serious
issues with the Hasmonean priest-kings. I don’t think anyonewould argue
that the Dead Sea Scrolls are not strongly Enochian.


The Jewish Nazarenes (”branchers”) were heirs, IMO, to the Enochian
traditions but Gentile Christianity imported a constellation of influences
from Graeco-Roman sources. That Enochian Judaism was an alternative to
Mosaic nomian Judaeism can explain why Paul appears anti-nomian and why
Enoch was not included in the Rabbinical canon.


Quoted in the Book of Jude:

“And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute
judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And
of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
(Enoch 1:9)


Other references to the SON OF MAN in Enoch:
“And there I saw One who had a head of days, And His head was white like
wool, And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of
a man, And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. 2
And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things,
concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he
went with the Ancient of Days? And he answered and said unto me: This
is the Son of Man who hath righteousness, With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden, Because the
Lord of Hosts hath chosen him, And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before
the Lord of Hosts in uprightness for ever.” (Part 8 Chapter 46:1-3)


1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness Which was
inexhaustible: And around it were many fountains of wisdom: And all the
thirsty drank of them, And were filled with wisdom, And their dwellings were
with the righteous and holy and elect. 2 And at that hour that Son of Man
was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the
Ancient of Days. 3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before
the stars of the heaven were made, His name
was named before the Lord of Hosts. 4 He shall be a staff to the righteous
whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the
Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart. 5 All who dwell
on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless
and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts.

6 And for this reason hath he
been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for
evermore. 7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Hosts hath revealed him to the
holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because
they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated
all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Hosts: For in his name
they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to
their life. (Part 8 Chapter 48:1-7)


The Book of Daniel, like Enoch, was written originally in Aramaic. It
contains the most famous reference to the SON OF MAN.
Daniel 7:13-14 (WEB)


13 חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא וארו עם־ענני שׁמיא כבר אנשׁ אתה הוה ועד־עתיק יומיא
מטה וקדמוהי הקרבוהי׃ 14 ולה יהיב שׁלטן ויקר ומלכו וכל עממיא אמיא ולשׁניא לה
יפלחון שׁלטנה שׁלטן עלם די־לא יעדה ומלכותה פ


13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of
the sky one like a son of man (כבר אנש [kibar 'anash]), and he came even to
the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 There was
given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations,
and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be
destroyed.


Jesus spoke of himself, just as above in Daniel, at Matthew 24:30 And
then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in
the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


……and at Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting
on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
As you can see, Jesus refers to himself as the SON OF MAN (Aramaic bar
nasha) of Daniel and Enoch and not, IMO, as simply the bar nash/a idiom for
“just a guy.”


Now let’s see how many times Jesus calls himself the bar nasha (son of
man)…he never referred to himself with certainty or non-cryptically as
the Messiah.


Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds
of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his]
head.


Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to
forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy
bed, and go unto thine house.


Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities
of Israel, till the Son of man be come.


Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold
a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
wisdom is justified of her children.


Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall
be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not
be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.


Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s
belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart
of the earth.


Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed
is the Son of man;


Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall
gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do
iniquity;


Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with
his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his
kingdom.


Jack klimon's website

full text: Yeshua, the Enochian Jew « Prayers and Reflections
__________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Last edited by Mr Cheese; 06-26-2009 at 07:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-26-2009, 06:45 AM
Mr Cheese's Avatar
Mr Cheese Online!
Religion: Gnosticism
Title:More Cheese vicar
  
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Not near Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,206
Frubals: 8762744
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Mr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubalsMr Cheese glares at people who slurp their frubals
Default
114, is for many "problematic"and seemingly sexist. According to our fellow Oberon this is indeed the story here. However there are "other scholars" that point to a very different idea...

Marvin Meyer quotes Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies 5.8.44 for comparison: "For this, he says, is 'the gate of heaven,' . . . where it is necessary for them, when they have come there, to cast off their clothing and all become bridegrooms, having been made male through the virgin spirit." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 109)


Marvin Meyer quotes Clement of Alexandria, Excerpts from Theodotus 79 for comparison: "As long, then, as the seed is still unformed, they say, it is a child of the female, but when it was formed, it was changed into a man and becomes a son of the bridegroom. No longer is it weak and subject to the cosmic (forces), visible and invisible, but, having become male, it becomes a male fruit." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 109)


Marvin Meyer quotes First Apocalypse of James 41:15-19 for comparison: "The perishable has gone [up] to the imperishable, and [the] element of femaleness has attained to the element of this maleness." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 110)


Marvin Meyer quotes Zostrianos 131:2-10 for comparison: "Do not baptize yourselves with death, nor give yourselves into the hands of those who are inferior to you instead of those who are better. Flee from the madness and the bondage of femaleness, and choose for yourselves the salvation of maleness. You have not come [to] suffer, but rather you have come to escape your bondage." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 110)


Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "As in the Gospel of Mary (pages 17-18 of the papyrus) and in Pistis Sophia (chapter 146), Simon Peter is not enthusiastic about the presence of Mariham (mentioned in Saying 21), just as in John 4:27 the disciples of Jesus are amazed because he is speaking with a woman. Male and female must become one (Saying 23 and Commentary). Jesus will 'draw' her (John 12:32) so that she will become 'one spirit' with him (1 Corinthians 6:17). She will become a man; just so, Ignatius of Antioch says that when he receives the pure light he will 'become a man' (Romans, 6, 2; for another parallel to Ignatius see Commentary on Saying 82). In order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, women must become men. We might be tempted to take this notion symbolically were it not for the existence of Gnostic parallels, for example in the Gospel of Mary (page 9), in Clement of Alexandria (Excerpta ex Theodoto 21, 3), and among the Naassenes. The 'house of God' is reserved 'for the spiritual ones alone; when they come there they cast off their garments [see Saying 38] and all become bridegrooms [Saying 75], having been made male by the virginal Spirit' (Hippolytus, Ref., 5, 8, 44). The high point of Thomas's eschatology is thus reached, at the end of his gospel, with the obliteration of sex." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 198)

Helmut Koester writes: "But the ideal of the itinerant man, who is independent of all social and family bonds, also seems to imply that women engaged in the pursuit of common values and social conventions likewise are not fit for this role unless they accept the ideal of the ascetic man: [114]." (Ancient Christian Gospels, p. 128)
Funk and Hoover write: "In v. 3 Jesus is not suggesting a sex-change operation, but is using 'male' and 'female' metaphorically to refer ot the higher and lower aspects of human nature. Mary is thus to undergo a spiritual transformation from her earthly, material, passionate nature (which the evangelist equates with the female) to a heavenly, spiritual, intellectual nature (which the evangelist equates with the male). This transformation may possibly have involved ritual acts or ascetic practices." (The Five Gospels, p. 532)


Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "Indeed, Jesus says of Mary (presumably Mary Magdalene, as in most Gnostic revelations) that he will make her a male so that she may become a 'living spirit' like the male apostles: 'for every woman who makes herself a man will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven' (114/112). According to the Naassenes, spiritual beings will come to 'the house of God'; there they will cast off their garments and all of them will become bridegrooms, having been made male by the virginal Spirit. [Hippolytus Ref. V. 8. 44.] This teaching is close to that of Thomas." (Gnosticism & Early Christianity, p. 188)


...........

Thus the idea that 114 is about body hatred, sexism, women as 2nd class citizens, again, once again is not the full story. We take this in context with thomas 22, allusions of unification of opposites in Philip, the veneration of Mary Mag in Philip and other Gnostic texts (for example nag hammadi, pistis sophia and mandaean, gosp mary) makes a strong opposition for the allusions that Gnostics were all misoginistic body haters... because as is with all Gnostics, one needs to read between the lines... simply looking at face value, reveals rather little.
__________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Last edited by Mr Cheese; 06-26-2009 at 07:34 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-26-2009, 10:26 AM
Oberon Online!
Religion: Mostly Agnostic
Title:Uber Member
  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern US
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,813
Frubals: 1937575
Oberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubal
Oberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubalOberon says every time your read this, God slaps another frubal
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cheese View Post
Oh please.... that is why Gnostics worshipped Sophia,
In many gnostic cosmonogies, Sophia had more in common with satan than a figure of worship. Sophia was responsible for all the evil in the world, because she decided to act without the permission of the one true god, and reproduced without a consort, producing the god of the OT, who subsequently produced the evil material world from which gnostics seek to escape.

Quote:
had women priests, placed women in high regard in scriptures and some groups even placed a certain woman as Yeshua's equal.....
For example?


Quote:
You are just plain wrong....
I find this quite an amusing remark coming from someone who quoted a modern forgery to support his position.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 3 of 8 < 123 45 > Last »

« Sophia | Sabaoth, and Zoe »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:51 AM.

Contact Us - Religious Forums - Archive 1, 2 - Top

© 2009 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.