Agnostic Gnosticism (myth, Revelation, God, theology, Article)

[Willamena]

"Tillich says the revelation to the Gnostic is not a solution of the mystery, but the revelation of that mystery as a mystery."

Do you agree with this quote? Is the Gnostic necessarily Agnostic?

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Willamena

"Tillich says the revelation to the Gnostic is not a solution of the mystery, but the revelation of that mystery as a mystery."

Do you agree with this quote? Is the Gnostic necessarily Agnostic?

Perhaps this is peculiarly modern Gnosticism, because as far as i am aware from what i have read, the ancient Gnostics believed that Gnosis was the revelation of intuitive knowledge - that is, a level of understanding that can't necessarily be communicated to another person, but is still a revelation nonetheless, a lifting of the veil of ignorance.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Perhaps this is peculiarly modern Gnosticism, because as far as i am aware from what i have read, the ancient Gnostics believed that Gnosis was the revelation of intuitive knowledge - that is, a level of understanding that can't necessarily be communicated to another person, but is still a revelation nonetheless, a lifting of the veil of ignorance.

But what is the knowledge that is revealed through intuition? Whatever it is, it comes from the unconscious and therefore is a part of the very mystery that is being revealed.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Willamena

But what is the knowledge that is revealed through intuition?

I can't say for sure, but i imagine it is knowing the answers to all those "ultimate questions" people always ask.

Originally Posted by Willamena

Whatever it is, it comes from the unconscious and therefore is a part of the very mystery that is being revealed.

Gnostics would say it comes from God, not the unconscious, and i didn't say it was unconscious knowledge, just non-communicable.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Gnostics would say it comes from God, not the unconscious, and i didn't say it was unconscious knowledge, just non-communicable.

Tillich would say we are unconscious of God. If, through intuition, it comes from a God we are unconscious of, then that's the same as saying it comes to us from the unconscious. And, incidentally, that would explain why it is not communicable, because we only have words for things we can be conscious of.

[Willamena]

Robert Price also suggests that the Gnostic and the Agnostic may be the same.

We know what the word “agnostic” means and probably also what the word “Gnostic” means. The one denotes a claim not to know what most people think they know, the other a claim to know what most people do not dream of knowing. They might sound far distant from one another, even polar opposites. But this morning I mean to suggest that they are one and the same.

Article: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ticgnostic.htm

The Gnostic knows that the world system the average believer takes for granted is a sham, a scheme, a show, and like the agnostic, he no longer wants to be grist for the mill of the Powers that rule this age, who count on his loyal allegiance to keep the scam going. What the Gnostic knows and what the agnostic knows is identical. Only the agnostic has managed to get beyond mythic consciousness.

Like on that Star Trek episode, where the Enterprise is caught in they know not what, until they can get a distant enough perspective to see it is a huge unicellular organism that has them mired. As it was at the start--you can see nothing! The Gnostic, when we get to his claims of knowledge beyond this world, knows nothing. And he will admit it-- no thing! Neti neti. His theology is apophatic. It is a knowledge of a cloud of unknowing.

Does that represent Gnosticism as you know it?

Originally Posted by Willamena

it comes from the unconscious.

I have never really studied the mind that well, is the unconscious different from the subconscious, because to other people it might mean the same.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Willamena

The Gnostic knows that the world system the average believer takes for granted is a sham, a scheme, a show, and like the agnostic, he no longer wants to be grist for the mill of the Powers that rule this age, who count on his loyal allegiance to keep the scam going. What the Gnostic knows and what the agnostic knows is identical. Only the agnostic has managed to get beyond mythic consciousness.

Like on that Star Trek episode, where the Enterprise is caught in they know not what, until they can get a distant enough perspective to see it is a huge unicellular organism that has them mired. As it was at the start--you can see nothing! The Gnostic, when we get to his claims of knowledge beyond this world, knows nothing. And he will admit it-- no thing! Neti neti. His theology is apophatic. It is a knowledge of a cloud of unknowing.

Does that represent Gnosticism as you know it?

Not really, no. I know that Valentinus and Basilides would very much disagree with Mr. Price. I guess it depends on how you want to see Gnosticism.

I'd say that the Gnostic first needs to realise his ignorance, and become the agnostic. But once Gnosis is received, to use that Star Trek example, the Gnostic sees the whole unicelluar organism, whereas the agnostic remains oblivious in the cytoplasm.

Classic Gnosticism would say that we are not unconscious of God, but that a veil of ignorance has been placed across our eyes - from my POV the agnostic is aware of the veil, aware of his own ignorance, but the Gnostic has had that veil lifted.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by A. Leaf

I have never really studied the mind that well, is the unconscious different from the subconscious, because to other people it might mean the same.

They both describe parts of the mind that we are not consciously aware of, but the word subconscious is used when it refers to an action or behaviour that we can be made aware of with just a little attention.