Modern Gnosticism (Jesus, ritual, Earth, gospel, Buddhism)

[lunamoth]

No, problem. Thank you for taking an interest. My pleasure.

Yes we are theists, but i guess not in the conventional sense.

I personally believe that a Christ is what someone becomes when they are annointed by God, they become one with God, but also retain their individual body and their mind is still attached to their physical brain. Thus they are still an individual human.
After death the Christ is fully of God and is more akin to an Aeon, its no longer a true individual. This is interesting. I acutally used to believe something like this as well. But, I've come to believe that we retain our individual identity somehow in the next life.

The Eucharist - glad you asked, i was thinking about this today on the bus.
For me, its meaning is two-fold. First it is a literal reminder of Jesus "Do this in rememberance of me" it helps me keep my mind focussed on my teacher and not forget whose wisdom i am following. I don't go to a church, i do Eucharist myself, several times a day normally, when i eat bread or drink something (anything, not only wine ). Interesting--perhaps like saying grace?

Secondly it reminds me that our bodies, and the body of Jesus, are of the same substance as the bread and the wine. The bread and wine are literally Jesus's body because there is really no distinction between the our bodies and the world around us. This is very cool. Being a scientist I appreciate how close in composition our bodies are to bread and wine, and how amazing it is that these molecules become part of us, our entire physical make-up being turned over every seven or so years. I actually believe that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist. One thing I've noticed when I do lectio divina is that I physically crave to eat and drink the Word. I get a very visceral hunger for Christ.

We don't know what they did in the Bridal Chamber ritual. Personally i don't think it was sexual, i think it was a marrying of different aspects of the self. OK then!

I believe the soul is the personality, the temporary and mortal aspect of what makes us unique individuals. I believe it dies with the body, but that the spirit lives on.
I don't believe that the body is evil, but like Ash said, i think it is a source of confining ignorance. This is an interesting way of stating it and different than my previous understanding of Gnostic views on the body, soul and spirit. So you think our personality dies, and it is only some other spirit that lives on. Do you think of this as merging with the ocean of God?

I called it trans-panentheistic in another thread. I believe God is literally everything, but also so much more. In one of our texts God is described as being greater than infinite, but it then says that the word greater is not even adequate. Sounds like panentheism--what does the 'trans' prefix add? My understanding of panentheistic is that God is More, and although He is not His creation 'in Him we live and move and have our being.' BTW, I do not think God is "the Beard in the Sky,' but as you say, beyond Oneness. God is Being, and More than Being. Anyhoo...so much for mere words.

Yeah, i forget whether it is Barbelo of Sophia that was named as the Holy Spirit, not that it really matters, they're all aspects of God. I believe it is the active part of God, thats which interacts with us in the most direct way. For example, i believe that the Holy Spirit delivers visions and gives the Christ the power to perform miracles on Earth etc. Thank you for the explanation. I guess since gnosis is the main objective Sophia would be the critical active manifestation of God for you.

You become a Christ, like Jesus did, after you achieve full Gnosis.
It manifests mainly in your mind, but theoretically a Christ should be able to do anything they want, its like the physical laws of this universe have been broken down for them - they see far beyond them. You actually believe you will be able to break the laws of the universe? What does 'seeing beyond' them mean? If it's only theoretical, I imagine there are benefits to the process itself, even if the goal is not really achievable. Another Gnostic I have conversed with discusses the idea that gnosis means going past the illusion that we are able to judge good and evil, and instead we transform and exist in love. I like that, although I actually see this is a pretty orthodox Christian goal as well.

The afterlife is a difficult subject, that none of us have any real knowledge of. I personally believe that our lives as we know them stop at death. If anything survives it would be as a part of God, a living memory of a sort. I don't dismiss the possibility of the divine spark within us from reincarnating either. I've sometimes wondered if what 'survives' after the baptism by fire is simply all the love we've particpated in during our lives. All else that divides and causes hurt and pain is what gets burned away.

Its pretty much all on you. The truth of God is plain to see, it is not hidden, our goal is to overcome the walls of self-made ignorance so that we may see the truth. At which point the mind fully opens (this is what i mean by being annointed by God) to the ultimate truth. This is where we differ, but I guess you already knew that. Thank you for clarifying this point for me.

I believe Gnosis is probably acquired in little steps, little glimpses now and then until we receive final Gnosis and are transformed into Christs. Oh, I'm not going to remember this well enough to find the quote, but there is a phrase I like in one of Paul's epistles about putting on Christ, like a rainment. I refer to it as 'putting on my Jesus suit.' It is our goal to be Chirst-like and let Christ work through us. I stop short of saying that we become Christ. But, I agree that this process comes in glimmers.

No. God doesn't need or want worship in my opinion. The demiurge is the God that likes being worshipped. I don't worship Christ either, revere is a more accurate word, like you revere a good teacher. I agree that God does not need our worship, but worship is our response to His love. Oh, here you refer to the the demiurge; perhaps this is why you include the 'trans' above, to signify this aspect?

Not really, i view Jesus as the truth and the way, but it probably means something different to each of us i think. I also believe that God is love, that we should all love one another because we are all one in God. I might have said this myself.

(You said something about God being the source of evil--that one I do not agree with. More like the absence of God, but that's a long discussion with many nuances, right.)

I don't think you are on the path to destruction either luna, Whew! I'm gald you do not think this way Hal.

but i do think many people who blindly follow are on the path to destruction. You clearly think and wish to learn about other beliefs, you are not blindly following but do so because you feel it is right. So long as you love others as Jesus loved all people, you'll be fine. Good to know.

Thank you again,
luna

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I acutally used to believe something like this as well. But, I've come to believe that we retain our individual identity somehow in the next life.

I can understand that, it is a scary thought to simply... end. I guess this belief of mine stems form the time i spent researching the Buddhist concept of the mind - but also Jesus's rebuttal to the Pharisees in Luke 20:35-36. Its all a matter of interpretation, but to me an angel is like an Aeon as aspect of God, not really an individual self.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Interesting--perhaps like saying grace?

Kinda, its just really a little thought, not really a prayer as such.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

This is very cool. Being a scientist I appreciate how close in composition our bodies are to bread and wine, and how amazing it is that these molecules become part of us, our entire physical make-up being turned over every seven or so years. I actually believe that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist. One thing I've noticed when I do lectio divina is that I physically crave to eat and drink the Word. I get a very visceral hunger for Christ.

Oh indeed, i'm a scientist myself, a Zoologist. That's why Gnosticism (or how i understand it at least) appealed so much to me.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

This is an interesting way of stating it and different than my previous understanding of Gnostic views on the body, soul and spirit. So you think our personality dies, and it is only some other spirit that lives on. Do you think of this as merging with the ocean of God?

Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Sounds like panentheism--what does the 'trans' prefix add? My understanding of panentheistic is that God is More, and although He is not His creation 'in Him we live and move and have our being.' BTW, I do not think God is "the Beard in the Sky,' but as you say, beyond Oneness. God is Being, and More than Being. Anyhoo...so much for mere words.

I added the trans just to emphasise how truly infinite God is to me. To me, I am God because nothing is not God, if you see what i mean. But also, God expresses its existance in so many other infinite ways, panentheistic didn't seem quite enough, lol, i know it sounds silly.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Thank you for the explanation. I guess since gnosis is the main objective Sophia would be the critical active manifestation of God for you.

I do love Sophia yes, but i think its important to to understand that i view her as an aspect of God, not a Goddess in her own right. When she speaks for example, the entire fullness of God speaks through her.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You actually believe you will be able to break the laws of the universe? What does 'seeing beyond' them mean? If it's only theoretical, I imagine there are benefits to the process itself, even if the goal is not really achievable. Another Gnostic I have conversed with discusses the idea that gnosis means going past the illusion that we are able to judge good and evil, and instead we transform and exist in love. I like that, although I actually see this is a pretty orthodox Christian goal as well.

That is a nice way of thinking, and i think it is true, who is this mysterious Gnostic friend of yours?
I believe a Christ can break the laws of the universe, yes. Jesus raised people from the dead, healed blindness and turned water into wine, if you can see the workings of the universe, and as a Christ you a part of the fullness of God, you can tinker with those laws.
What i mean by seeing beyond, is that i believe that this reality is only one among an infinite number. A Christ will see that this universe and its laws are only a single collection of probabilities, a Christ can alter these probabilities.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I've sometimes wondered if what 'survives' after the baptism by fire is simply all the love we've particpated in during our lives. All else that divides and causes hurt and pain is what gets burned away.

Thats a very nice concept, it makes a lot of sense too.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I agree that God does not need our worship, but worship is our response to His love. Oh, here you refer to the the demiurge; perhaps this is why you include the 'trans' above, to signify this aspect?

I believe the demiurge is part of God too, that might sound strange, but i believe that nothing is not God.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

(You said something about God being the source of evil--that one I do not agree with. More like the absence of God, but that's a long discussion with many nuances, right.)

That is a long discussion, for me its all about God being everything. Do you believe in the omnibenevolence of God then, luna? Do you believe in a Satan?

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Whew! I'm glad you do not think this way Hal.

I try too, although sometimes i do faulter. I'm sure you understand that when you believe 100% that you are right about something, it can be hard to see people believing the opposite. Maybe not.

[lunamoth]

Hi Hal, Thank you for your responses. I'll just follow up with a couple of points you mentioned.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

.
Oh indeed, i'm a scientist myself, a Zoologist. That's why Gnosticism (or how i understand it at least) appealed so much to me.

I'm a plant physiologist/molecular geneticist. Quiescent in that respect now that I am raising kids.

I added the trans just to emphasise how truly infinite God is to me. To me, I am God because nothing is not God, if you see what i mean. But also, God expresses its existance in so many other infinite ways, panentheistic didn't seem quite enough, lol, i know it sounds silly.

Not silly. God is beyond expression.

who is this mysterious Gnostic friend of yours?

He's on another forum, but has not been posting for a while.

I believe a Christ can break the laws of the universe, yes. Jesus raised people from the dead, healed blindness and turned water into wine, if you can see the workings of the universe, and as a Christ you a part of the fullness of God, you can tinker with those laws.

Nice to meet another scientist with humility enough to accept the supernatural. I actually think of the supernatural as an extension of the scientific/natural, included with cultural memory and Revealation on a circle of knowledge.

That is a long discussion, for me its all about God being everything. Do you believe in the omnibenevolence of God then, luna? Do you believe in a Satan?

I have not thought much about the omnibenevolence of God, but as I do believe that God is love this would quality as omnibenevolent I guess. The problem is that we can't always see the love in some outcomes and actions. Also I accept the Fallen World view. Yes, I believe in the enemy, but what he is I am not certain. He could be something like a fallen angel as the Story says, he could be those spaces in the universe created when we push God away, he could be our own attachment to the material world which turns us away from God and love, or all of those things. Does not matter which: the threat is very real any way you slice it.

I try too, although sometimes i do faulter. I'm sure you understand that when you believe 100% that you are right about something, it can be hard to see people believing the opposite. Maybe not.

I do understand.

cheers and thank you,
luna

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I'm a plant physiologist/molecular geneticist. Quiescent in that respect now that I am raising kids.

I'm in a similar situation, but without the kids . Its so hard to find a decent job in my field, they're very rare over here. I'm stuck doing boring chemistry work.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Nice to meet another scientist with humility enough to accept the supernatural. I actually think of the supernatural as an extension of the scientific/natural, included with cultural memory and Revealation on a circle of knowledge.

I think there isn't anything really supernatural, just improbable things.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I have not thought much about the omnibenevolence of God, but as I do believe that God is love this would quality as omnibenevolent I guess. The problem is that we can't always see the love in some outcomes and actions. Also I accept the Fallen World view. Yes, I believe in the enemy, but what he is I am not certain. He could be something like a fallen angel as the Story says, he could be those spaces in the universe created when we push God away, he could be our own attachment to the material world which turns us away from God and love, or all of those things. Does not matter which: the threat is very real any way you slice it.

There is some similarity between our belief in ignorance (embodied in the demiurge) and your idea of pushing God away.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I'm in a similar situation, but without the kids . Its so hard to find a decent job in my field, they're very rare over here. I'm stuck doing boring chemistry work.

I think zoology jobs are pretty rare everywhere, if you want to be paid a living wage that is. Funny thing about science is how very little income you earn after all those years of school, unless you go into a commercial application. I managed to make a decent career of it but after kids, well, it's hard enough to be a successful scientist and remain married, much less have children too. At least that's how it seems to me.

I think there isn't anything really supernatural, just improbable things.

I'll ponder on that one...

There is some similarity between our belief in ignorance (embodied in the demiurge) and your idea of pushing God away.

Oh, I bet we are a lot closer in belief than it might at first seem.

Have a great weekend.

luna

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think zoology jobs are pretty rare everywhere, if you want to be paid a living wage that is. Funny thing about science is how very little income you earn after all those years of school, unless you go into a commercial application. I managed to make a decent career of it but after kids, well, it's hard enough to be a successful scientist and remain married, much less have children too. At least that's how it seems to me.

Tell me about it, you can earn millions managing people - but if you actually do the work itself you get paid diddly squat - best not get me started on this one

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Have a great weekend.

You too.

[Simon Gnosis]

For me I accept no church appointed authority.
No true Gnostic would allow him or her self to be subjected to any rigid hierachy or unquestionable doctrine.
No church elders no bishops, in short no clergy.


In our 'church' we elect our readers and prayer leaders that very day, at a Gnostic 'church' you may find you are listening to scripture read by a child or religous instruction led by a muslim....and each meeting it changes.

Gnosticsm cannot truly be defined by any doctrine as the orthodoxies define themselves.

If you think you are gnostic.....then you probably are.

Jesus was the first famous Gnostic.