Discussion of the Secret Book of John (Jesus, Earth, gospel)

[EnhancedSpirit]

Originally Posted by Buttons*

yup! *smiles* this is what I was gonna post tomorrow! It's really great to see everyone so enthused about this! *is happied*

... i had no idea you were mystic! Wow, what a great surprise!

I seem to be a lot of things. I have not found a 'box' yet that fits all that I believe to be true. I am like you, I find the most incredible similarities between the beliefs. Not just gnostic and taoism, but all religous teachings are saying the same thing, I study all beliefs, and I find that once I dig through and sort out the dogma and traditions, there is a common truth found in the heart of every belief system. And that is what I call the UNIVERSAL TRUTH OF GOD. Not limited to any one religion.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by EnhancedSpirit

I seem to be a lot of things. I have not found a 'box' yet that fits all that I believe to be true. I am like you, I find the most incredible similarities between the beliefs. Not just gnostic and taoism, but all religous teachings are saying the same thing, I study all beliefs, and I find that once I dig through and sort out the dogma and traditions, there is a common truth found in the heart of every belief system. And that is what I call the UNIVERSAL TRUTH OF GOD. Not limited to any one religion.

I agree completely. I'm not limited strictly to Gnosticism... in fact, I believe, for myself, that being Gnostic allows me to be a member of any and all religion. (i know, it sounds odd...)

[ChrisP]

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself.

He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him.

He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name. "

[michel]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself.

He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him.

He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name. "

Sorry Chris, from what did you read that?

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by michel

Sorry Chris, from what did you read that?

Thats from the Secret Book (Apocryphon) of John. You can find it here Mich
http://www.gnosis.org/~gnosis/naghamm/apocjn.html

Originally Posted by ChrisP

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

Ok, well personally i don't believe in the demiurge as a being, i think of it as all those things that hinder us in our acquiring Gnosis.
But, to answer your question

The Demiurge is the 'grandson' of the God in the text you quoted. That God is The One, the God of the Gnostics. The Demiurge is the son of Sophia, the god of the Old Testament. He created the world in such a way as to blind humanity to the truth.
Personally, i don't believe he created the world, i believe our universe is one of innumerable emanations from the One.
But the ancients believed that the demiurge was born flawed, and passed this flaw onto the world he created.

What is he up to today? Well, he's blinding something like 3 billion people to the truth, everyone that worships him is creating a thicker veil over their own eyes.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Thats from the Secret Book (Apocryphon) of John. You can find it here Mich
http://www.gnosis.org/~gnosis/naghamm/apocjn.html


Ok, well personally i don't believe in the demiurge as a being, i think of it as all those things that hinder us in our acquiring Gnosis.
But, to answer your question

The Demiurge is the 'grandson' of the God in the text you quoted. That God is The One, the God of the Gnostics. The Demiurge is the son of Sophia, the god of the Old Testament. He created the world in such a way as to blind humanity to the truth.
Personally, i don't believe he created the world, i believe our universe is one of innumerable emanations from the One.
But the ancients believed that the demiurge was born flawed, and passed this flaw onto the world he created.

What is he up to today? Well, he's blinding something like 3 billion people to the truth, everyone that worships him is creating a thicker veil over their own eyes.

Thanks.

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by ChrisP

As a Taoist, I find the following quite interesting reading. It seems to mirror the first chapter of the Tao te Ching. My question to Halc and Ash is : what relation is this nameless one to the Demiurge. I understand the Demiurge is considered the creator, but who created him and what is he up to now ? Is it known?

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself.

He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him.

He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name. "

see? now you're questioning doctrine!

In the mythology of it IS strange. Halcyon covered it pretty well. But the allegory is that out of wisdom, ignorance is born. from ONE source we have our wisdom, but the One did not create ignorance, Sophia, (wisdom) was confused, and simply wanted to create. She took the wrong route and did not ask the One for permission... therefore the demiurge, ignorance, was ugly, misshapen, and hateful. It is all applicable to our own minds, and our own experiences with finding the One, Wisdom, and Ignorance.

Hopefully everyone sees what i'm trying to get across here....

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by button

I agree completely. I'm not limited strictly to Gnosticism... in fact, I believe, for myself, that being Gnostic allows me to be a member of any and all religion. (i know, it sounds odd...)

Or in my (agnostic) case, all religion but none at all.