Interpreting the Gospel of Thomas (Jesus, ritual, Kingdom, creation)

[Cynic]

Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore."
Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."


How do Gnostics interpret these sayings?

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

I know this one off the top of my head, the other two will need researching.

This is nothing to do with males or females. To the ancient Gnostics; male = everything spiritual and female = everything material. Thus when Yeshua talks about making someone male, firstly the person in question may not necessarily be physically female - they may be a man. Secondly, he is talking about helping them let go of their attachment to material things and the material world so they can reach Gnosis/Enlightenment which is knowledge of the Father.

Why they used the allegories of male and female is a matter of speculation, i theorise that it is because females give birth and nuture new material life, they are linked to the "creation of new matter" far more intimately than a man is.

The lion one is harder, again its nothing to do with lions or humans. Its allegory. I imagine it is similar to the male/female quote.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I know this one off the top of my head, the other two will need researching.

This is nothing to do with males or females. To the ancient Gnostics; male = everything spiritual and female = everything material. Thus when Yeshua talks about making someone male, firstly the person in question may not necessarily be physically female - they may be a man. Secondly, he is talking about helping them let go of their attachment to material things and the material world so they can reach Gnosis/Enlightenment which is knowledge of the Father.

Why they used the allegories of male and female is a matter of speculation, i theorise that it is because females give birth and nuture new material life, they are linked to the "creation of new matter" far more intimately than a man is.

The lion one is harder, again its nothing to do with lions or humans. Its allegory. I imagine it is similar to the male/female quote.

Hmmm. That sounds like a good explanation. However I always thought the female represented the spiritual, while the male physical: inner/outer, subjective/objective, etc. The saying reminds me of the Androgyne, the character that is both male and female, and it's been a while so i forgot what the androgyne supposedely represents.

[sanraal]

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Jesus was talking about a female his (male) disciples. From ancient time a male is an active initiative taking person who also likes to take control and be in charge. A female is the other way around, passive, receiving, emotional etc.

I think Jesus wanted to make her complete in spirit meaning she has both her male and female side balanced. After all he thought males were often too controling (he did say 'oh thou of the wrong gender once'). His disciples had to become passive, receiving. Only then they could receive the gentle and loving Holy Spirit that filled their hearts. I think to the woman he meant to tell the other way around, making her more initiative taking and male so that her male/female qualities are in balance (the perfect Spirit).

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by sanraal

Jesus was talking about a female his (male) disciples. From ancient time a male is an active initiative taking person who also likes to take control and be in charge. A female is the other way around, passive, receiving, emotional etc.

I think Jesus wanted to make her complete in spirit meaning she has both her male and female side balanced. After all he thought males were often too controling (he did say 'oh thou of the wrong gender once'). His disciples had to become passive, receiving. Only then they could receive the gentle and loving Holy Spirit that filled their hearts. I think to the woman he meant to tell the other way around, making her more initiative taking and male so that her male/female qualities are in balance (the perfect Spirit).

Yeah, that's what i thought too....

[Mr Cheese]

(7)
Jesus said,
“Blessed is the lion
which becomes man
when consumed by man;
and cursed is the man
whom the lion consumes,
and the lion becomes man.”

The Apocryphon of John
“a lion-faced serpent … called … Yaltabaoth”
On the Origin of the World
“he called himself Yaldabaoth.
But Ariael is what the perfect call him,
for he was like a lion.”
The Apocryphon of John
“the rest of the powers become jealous, because
… his (Man’s) intelligence was greater
… than that of the chief archon.”
Blessed is the lion
who becomes Man,
when Man consumes
this mythical god of good and evil
in the Spiritual fire
that melds all into One.
Cursed is the man,
consumed by the lion-faced archon
of jealousy and greed, who thereby allows
this evil archon to gain a human form.

thomas 7
....

In this intepretation we see Thomas is discussing overcoming of the demi urge

of course those that dislike the idea of Thomas as Gnostic may dislike this