Gnosticism (Jesus, reject, crucifixion, virtual, Buddhism)

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

For those who are interested, this is a link to a study of the history and beliefs of Christian Gnostics.

thank you! I've found websites that cover it, but not as thoroughly. I also found a website that discusses the Order of Nazorean Essenes. I was wondering if you knew if that was still Gnostics or something else, cause they cover some Gnostic themes, but im not sure what their point is... As far as the website goes... i cant remember what it is.... but ask me later for it if you'd like. I think all you have to do is google it...

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

For those who are interested, this is a link to a study of the history and beliefs of Christian Gnostics. Although there are some minor points within it that i would debate, it should give the reader the essential basics of Christian Gnosticism. And thus, hopefully, open up some paths of debate.

http://www.essene.com/Gospels/GnosticAndSophia.html

Enjoy!

Hi, Halcyon.

Thanks for that great link. I am currently printing out the entire document, since I want to read it on paper instead of on my monitor. In glancing through it, I noticed a couple of similarities to Mormonism. Maybe when I get through reading it in more depth, we can exchange thoughts on these similarities.

Kathryn

[Buttons*]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Hi, Halcyon.

Thanks for that great link. I am currently printing out the entire document, since I want to read it on paper instead of on my monitor. In glancing through it, I noticed a couple of similarities to Mormonism. Maybe when I get through reading it in more depth, we can exchange thoughts on these similarities.

Kathryn

I know that you weren't talking to me on the subject, but that was the question i was going to ask Halcyon. See, when i was reading the Gnostic Bible, it didn't seem anything like the Book of Mormon, but the way it's explained on online sources makes the two books sound similar. I havent completely read the Book of Mormon, but i've looked through it. The books didn't remotley mesh up to me... could you explain it further? Or maybe give me specific refrences to morman texts that mention Gnostic beliefs?

Thank you, i'd really appriciate it

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by gnosis_777

I know that you weren't talking to me on the subject, but that was the question i was going to ask Halcyon. See, when i was reading the Gnostic Bible, it didn't seem anything like the Book of Mormon, but the way it's explained on online sources makes the two books sound similar. I havent completely read the Book of Mormon, but i've looked through it. The books didn't remotley mesh up to me... could you explain it further? Or maybe give me specific refrences to morman texts that mention Gnostic beliefs?

Thank you, i'd really appriciate it

Well, how about for starters, I'll just mention some of the parts of the document Halcyon provided the link to that, when I read them, made me think, "Hmmm. That sounds familiar."

1. "Their vocabulary is unusual; their concepts defy the ideas of sin, the afterlife, and humanity's relatipnship with God which underlie most Western traditions."

Obviously, since I don't know next to nothing about Gnostic doctrines, I can't comment as to how similar they are to Mormon doctrine. But I do know that the LDS understanding of the afterlife and man's relationship to God is significantly different than that of mainstream Christianity.

2. "The Gnostics wrote of an ongoing relationship with Jesus, even years after his death, through revelation and vision.... They were brave enough and bold enough to lay claim to this birthright..."

I know of no Christian denomination today other than Mormonism that claims ongoing revelation from God to living prophets, personally authorized by God to receive His word.

3. "They... were destined to suffer mightily for their daring, for bit by bit their schools were condemned, their voices hushed to a bare whisper. Their sacred and treasured writings, the mystical words of the beloved Teacher, were destroyed with hardly a trace by a Christian orthodoxy that was wedded too irrevocably to the political power of the Roman State."

As you may know, we believe that a universal apostasy took place during the first couple of centuries following Christ's death. This statement seems to describe one way in which that apostasy may have taken place.

4. "Basilides claimed to have received 'secret words' of Jesus from the apostle Matthias."

"In approaching the Gnostic texts, one is immediately struck by the many concepts which have a root in esoteric tradition. Without this key, the writings are elusive, mysterious and sometimes incompresensible. That certain of their texts claim to be secret teachings, it is probably that there was an even more secret teaching shared by an inner circle, possibly contained in only one copy or transmitted by word of mouth.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but the Latter-day Saints have a strong belief in esoteric teachings, unlike mainstream Christianity. Our temples are open only to worthy, commited members of the Church, and we do not speak of what takes place in the temple outside of its walls. We hold these things to be sacred and to be taught only to the spiritually mature.

5. "The latter-day religion of Jesus Christ has never really encouraged an inquiry into the nature of God. Its emphasis has always been on Jesus as the Son of God..."

LDS doctrine insists that God the Father wants us to know Him and that, while He is a mystery to our finite minds, He has actually revealed many important things about Himself to us. We also see Jesus Christ as subordinate to His Father, although probably not to the degree the Gnostics do.

6. "Because humanity has been endowed with a soul, fashioned by the higher order of creators, it belongs to an order of evolution beyond the physical, and can, therefore, aspire to the heights of the spiritual kingdom.... It is the attainment of the human stage of evolution that marks the transition from the lower world of the physical into a higher spiritual realm.... Instead of being at the whim of the Gods, they spoke of man himself as a potential god, with the capability of assuming power over the physical world."

This sounds a lot the the LDS doctrine of Eternal Progression and Deification to me, though I'm sure there are many differences.

7. "When Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation, they 'disobeyed' the lower law of physical creation in order to respond to a higher law of spiritual growth."

Wow! I know of no other Christian denomination today that, like the Latter-day Saints, sees the Fall of Adam as a blessing instead of a curse. While we recognize that there were negative consequences attached to Adam's and Eve's transgression, we believe that they disobeyed the commandment not to partake of the forbidden fruit in order to be able to progress into true mortality, being subject to death, but also having the ability to know good from evil. It would be entirely accurate to say that we honor them to a far greater extent than we condemn them.

8. "Its path of progress lies in finding the middle way between the opposites. The only way to do this is to embark on the long journey of human evolution, willingly to open itself to all of its trials -- the pain, sorrow and death of terrestrial life. It is a phase that every kingdom in creation must pass through, and is the only way to move into higher realms, because nothing is given without merit."

"When Adam and Eve, symbolizing humanity, left the Garden of Eden, they did so by choice, leaving the comforts of a known existence for an insecure and probably treacherous future.... It is anything but a shameful act. It is the journey of the Hero, pure and simple."

We're talking Mormonism here. "There must needs be opposition in all things."

9. "The Jewel of Uncommon Price, and The Hymn of the Pearl."

This one hit me right between the eyes. Mormons have four sacred texts: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and... The Pearl of Great Price! I was a little bit confused about who the your Price and his royal parents were in The Hymn of the Prince, but if they are who I think they are, the story is right along the lines of the LDS belief in God's Plan of Salvation. Could you explain this to me? Who is the Price and who were his parents?

Anyway, I'm always interested in finding parallels between my Church and ancient Christianity, and maybe I'm overdoing it in this brief analysis. But I'd be interested in hearing your comments on some of the teachings, etc. I've brought up.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, how about for starters, I'll just mention some of the parts of the document Halcyon provided the link to that, when I read them, made me think, "Hmmm. That sounds familiar."

1. "Their vocabulary is unusual; their concepts defy the ideas of sin, the afterlife, and humanity's relatipnship with God which underlie most Western traditions."

Obviously, since I don't know next to nothing about Gnostic doctrines, I can't comment as to how similar they are to Mormon doctrine. But I do know that the LDS understanding of the afterlife and man's relationship to God is significantly different than that of mainstream Christianity.

2. "The Gnostics wrote of an ongoing relationship with Jesus, even years after his death, through revelation and vision.... They were brave enough and bold enough to lay claim to this birthright..."

I know of no Christian denomination today other than Mormonism that claims ongoing revelation from God to living prophets, personally authorized by God to receive His word.

3. "They... were destined to suffer mightily for their daring, for bit by bit their schools were condemned, their voices hushed to a bare whisper. Their sacred and treasured writings, the mystical words of the beloved Teacher, were destroyed with hardly a trace by a Christian orthodoxy that was wedded too irrevocably to the political power of the Roman State."

As you may know, we believe that a universal apostasy took place during the first couple of centuries following Christ's death. This statement seems to describe one way in which that apostasy may have taken place.

4. "Basilides claimed to have received 'secret words' of Jesus from the apostle Matthias."

"In approaching the Gnostic texts, one is immediately struck by the many concepts which have a root in esoteric tradition. Without this key, the writings are elusive, mysterious and sometimes incompresensible. That certain of their texts claim to be secret teachings, it is probably that there was an even more secret teaching shared by an inner circle, possibly contained in only one copy or transmitted by word of mouth.

I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but the Latter-day Saints have a strong belief in esoteric teachings, unlike mainstream Christianity. Our temples are open only to worthy, commited members of the Church, and we do not speak of what takes place in the temple outside of its walls. We hold these things to be sacred and to be taught only to the spiritually mature.

5. "The latter-day religion of Jesus Christ has never really encouraged an inquiry into the nature of God. Its emphasis has always been on Jesus as the Son of God..."

LDS doctrine insists that God the Father wants us to know Him and that, while He is a mystery to our finite minds, He has actually revealed many important things about Himself to us. We also see Jesus Christ as subordinate to His Father, although probably not to the degree the Gnostics do.

6. "Because humanity has been endowed with a soul, fashioned by the higher order of creators, it belongs to an order of evolution beyond the physical, and can, therefore, aspire to the heights of the spiritual kingdom.... It is the attainment of the human stage of evolution that marks the transition from the lower world of the physical into a higher spiritual realm.... Instead of being at the whim of the Gods, they spoke of man himself as a potential god, with the capability of assuming power over the physical world."

This sounds a lot the the LDS doctrine of Eternal Progression and Deification to me, though I'm sure there are many differences.

7. "When Adam and Eve succumbed to temptation, they 'disobeyed' the lower law of physical creation in order to respond to a higher law of spiritual growth."

Wow! I know of no other Christian denomination today that, like the Latter-day Saints, sees the Fall of Adam as a blessing instead of a curse. While we recognize that there were negative consequences attached to Adam's and Eve's transgression, we believe that they disobeyed the commandment not to partake of the forbidden fruit in order to be able to progress into true mortality, being subject to death, but also having the ability to know good from evil. It would be entirely accurate to say that we honor them to a far greater extent than we condemn them.

8. "Its path of progress lies in finding the middle way between the opposites. The only way to do this is to embark on the long journey of human evolution, willingly to open itself to all of its trials -- the pain, sorrow and death of terrestrial life. It is a phase that every kingdom in creation must pass through, and is the only way to move into higher realms, because nothing is given without merit."

"When Adam and Eve, symbolizing humanity, left the Garden of Eden, they did so by choice, leaving the comforts of a known existence for an insecure and probably treacherous future.... It is anything but a shameful act. It is the journey of the Hero, pure and simple."

We're talking Mormonism here. "There must needs be opposition in all things."

9. "The Jewel of Uncommon Price, and The Hymn of the Pearl."

This one hit me right between the eyes. Mormons have four sacred texts: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and... The Pearl of Great Price! I was a little bit confused about who the your Price and his royal parents were in The Hymn of the Prince, but if they are who I think they are, the story is right along the lines of the LDS belief in God's Plan of Salvation. Could you explain this to me? Who is the Price and who were his parents?

Anyway, I'm always interested in finding parallels between my Church and ancient Christianity, and maybe I'm overdoing it in this brief analysis. But I'd be interested in hearing your comments on some of the teachings, etc. I've brought up.

Ok Katz, i'll try my best.

1. Yes, mormons do have different views of these subjects, but i also know that they differ greatly from Gnostic thought, for example, you believe in a personal physical God, we believe in an unknowable distant and metaphysical God.

2. Yes, the Gnostics talked with Jesus (or the Christ at least) long after his death, one of the best known documents received from the phantom Christ was Pistis Sophia, also called the Sophia of Jesus Christ.

3. Indeed, an apostasy driven mainly by greed for wealth and power, i believe.

4. We believe Jesus spoke mainly in riddles, and in a form that only people of Gnostic thought could truly understand, i don't know if Mormons also have that belief about themselves?

5. To the Christian Gnostics Jesus was only one of the 'children' of God known as the Aeons. He was the male counterpart to the Holy Sophia, she is the Wisdom of God, he is the logos/word of God.

6. Ascension of the spirit (which in Gnostic thought is technically different to the soul) to become one with the True God is the entire goal of Gnosticism, we believe it can only be achieved through Gnosis, which is an insight of the True God or enlightenment. Do the LDS church have anything similar to Gnosis in their belief system?

7. Yes, Gnostics view the Fall myth very differently. In fact Eve is a Gnostic hero, defying the arrogant creator god and bringing the power of Gnosis into mankind's reach.

8. This was the basis of that one on one debate i started, to Gnostics "nothing is given without merit", ie we receive salvation through our effort to acheive Gnosis. I saw the belief in the mortal sacrifice of Jesus as opposing this principle. It takes no effort to believe in another's sacrifice.

9. Ugh, i don't really like the Hymn of the Pearl, sometimes known as the Song of the Pearl. It is a very allegorical work. I believe the Prince is supposed to be both the Gnostic rescuing the pearl (gnosis), but at the sametime the son (not jesus, but the first human). The parents are God, and Sophia.

Hope that's some help. I haven't yet read the BoM (hopefully get here in a week or so katz ). After i have read it i might find more similarities.

[Katzpur]

Hi, Halcyon.

Thanks for your comments. I guess there aren't as many similarities as I had assumed, just reading that one link.

4. We believe Jesus spoke mainly in riddles, and in a form that only people of Gnostic thought could truly understand, i don't know if Mormons also have that belief about themselves?

Yes, Jesus frequently spoke in parables, but we don't believe that we alone are able to understand them.

5. To the Christian Gnostics Jesus was only one of the 'children' of God known as the Aeons. He was the male counterpart to the Holy Sophia, she is the Wisdom of God, he is the logos/word of God.

Well, we do believe that God has a female counterpart, which is the ultimate heresy to most Christians. She probably has little in common with Sophia, though.

6. Ascension of the spirit (which in Gnostic thought is technically different to the soul) to become one with the True God is the entire goal of Gnosticism, we believe it can only be achieved through Gnosis, which is an insight of the True God or enlightenment. Do the LDS church have anything similar to Gnosis in their belief system?

Not if I'm understanding you correctly.

8. This was the basis of that one on one debate i started, to Gnostics "nothing is given without merit", ie we receive salvation through our effort to acheive Gnosis. I saw the belief in the mortal sacrifice of Jesus as opposing this principle. It takes no effort to believe in another's sacrifice.

I'd have to say that we believe in the importance of both faith in Jesus Christ and our own works.

9. Ugh, i don't really like the Hymn of the Pearl, sometimes known as the Song of the Pearl. It is a very allegorical work. I believe the Prince is supposed to be both the Gnostic rescuing the pearl (gnosis), but at the sametime the son (not jesus, but the first human). The parents are God, and Sophia.

Hmmm. This may relate to the LDS "Plan of Salvation." Maybe we can discuss it at some point.

[Buttons*]

thank's for clearing up that one for me too... i didnt think that they were that closley related...