Enlightenment

[sandandfoam]

I'm in no sense trying to have a go at Buddhists/Buddhism. I'm just thinking about what I've been reading that some Buddhists have written.
There's no such thing as enlightenment, is there?

[Engyo]

First we have to define terms. What do you mean when you use the word "enlightenment"? I ask because I don't think you could get three different Buddhists to agree on exactly what this term means, and that is within the context of Buddhism. In the wider general religious context, the meanings get even broader.

[sandandfoam]

Originally Posted by Engyo

First we have to define terms. What do you mean when you use the word "enlightenment"? I ask because I don't think you could get three different Buddhists to agree on exactly what this term means, and that is within the context of Buddhism. In the wider general religious context, the meanings get even broader.

Enlightenment in any sense people (including and maybe especially Buddhists) normally use it.

[Engyo]

Then we will have to take them case-by-case, I guess. This could take quite some time.

[sandandfoam]

Originally Posted by Engyo

Then we will have to take them case-by-case, I guess. This could take quite some time.

I would take normal use to cover what a person would find in a dictionary or on wiki.

[zenzero]

Friend Stephenw,

Enlightenment
I'm in no sense trying to have a go at Buddhists/Buddhism. I'm just thinking about what I've been reading that some Buddhists have written.
There's no such thing as enlightenment, is there?
__________________

Personal understanding which may be different from what Buddhists etc is that Only an enlightened person knows that there is no enlightenment as it is only an understanding.
Mountains are mountains.
for normal unenlightened people.
Mountains are not mountains when one starts towards enlightenment and finally after enlightenment or understanding the reality
Mountains are again mountains.
So only enlightened people qualify to state that there is nothing as enlightenment as it is always there even for those who are not enlightened except that one knows and the other does not.
One is Conscious and the other unconscious.
Love & rgds

[sandandfoam]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Friend Stephenw,



Personal understanding which may be different from what Buddhists etc is that Only an enlightened person knows that there is no enlightenment as it is only an understanding.
Mountains are mountains.
for normal unenlightened people.
Mountains are not mountains when one starts towards enlightenment and finally after enlightenment or understanding the reality
Mountains are again mountains.
So only enlightened people qualify to state that there is nothing as enlightenment as it is always there even for those who are not enlightened except that one knows and the other does not.
One is Conscious and the other unconscious.
Love & rgds

Thanks ZZ.

I also read that as soon as one would think they are enlightened - then they are not enlightened. So how can there be an enlightened person?
Also, enlightenment would seem to be a goal state and if there is only now isn't any such goal meaningless?

[zenzero]

Friend stephenw,

Understand this:
Enlightenment, samadhi, satori etc are all similar words.
they are states when the individual is merged with the universal.
During this period the individual is no more a separate entity and so no one can claim they are in that state as any claim would mean that he is not in a merged state but is still having a separate identity as an ego.
Any thoughts arising in the mind even of enlightenment are thoughts meaning separation or ego.
Followed?

Love & rgds

[sandandfoam]

Originally Posted by zenzero

Friend stephenw,

Understand this:
Enlightenment, samadhi, satori etc are all similar words.
they are states when the individual is merged with the universal.
During this period the individual is no more a separate entity and so no one can claim they are in that state as any claim would mean that he is not in a merged state but is still having a separate identity as an ego.
Any thoughts arising in the mind even of enlightenment are thoughts meaning separation or ego.
Followed?

Love & rgds

Yes. I think so. It leads me to conclude that a person cannot be enlightened because in the merged state there is no person.
I cannot be enlightened because if I were then there would be no me. You cannot be enlightened because if you were then there is no you. So for you and I there is no / can be no enlightenment. For us there is no such thing.

[Engyo]

My problem with all of this is that concluding that there is no such thing can lead one to stop working towards attainment. Then what is originally just a semantical argument leads to an unfortunate real-world choice; one that really isn't logically supported by the semantics.