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  #401  
Old 05-18-2009, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by proud muslim
So it can be "brothers" and the Ishmaelites are considered the brothers of Israelites through Isaac and Ishmael (PBUT).
That's just lazy speculation.

You have no proof that verse 18:18 refers to Muhammad, just speculation, and worse propaganda.

The JPS translation is quite clear that "for them" and "and among your own people". No Ishmaelites were presence in Moses' Exodus, nor at the meeting of Horeb (Sinai).

Did you even bother to read 18:15-16?

Moses said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 18:15-16
The LORD your God will raise up a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed. This is just what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb, on the day of Assembly, saying, "Let me not hear the voice of the LORD my God any longer or see this wondrous fire any more, lest I die."
"...from among your own people..." hence Israelites.

"...like myself..." Well, Moses is Israelite, hence "myself" is "Israelite".

Were the Ishmaelites were ever present at this meeting...at Horeb, on the day of Assembly????

Clearly the Assembly referred to at Horeb, when they received the Ten Commandments.

All I know is that Muslims like to twist the words around to suit themselves, instead of paying attention to context, including in context of time and place.

You're argument is weak because you left out most of the chapter (18). Every other part of the chapter, referred to Israelites. The Levites from verses 1-8. And from 9-15 it talk about Israelites entering the new land, where God warned them about following the customs of other kingdoms.

Why on earth would the chapter devote so much about the Israelites and the Levites, then say (what you say) talk of Ishmaelite prophet?

It doesn't make sense, and it's not in keeping with context of the chapter.
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  #402  
Old 05-18-2009, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ProudMuslim View Post
Kai, I understand you have asked this question number of times. I honestly did not find an exact clear passage in the Qur’an that says ‘The Torah is corrupted’, but passages that indicate the Jewish and Christians altered some of God’s words and also a general sincere warning (to everyone including Muslims) of doing so. Also in the Qur’an it says that God will always protect it from alteration, again an indication that it is the only one that was not subject to human error/alteration.

But here is something you might not be aware of. In Islam we don’t consider the entire Tanakh as divine, but only the Torah and Psalms. Additional to them is the Gospel.

Muhammed (PBUH), as I have explained before, mission was not to create an index to show us which part of the Torah or Gospels that were corrupted/altered. Instead Islam perception of God and His prophet/messengers is based on strict respect and anything that goes against that is not considered divine but corrupted. For example, we are strictly monotheist so any passage that indicates otherwise will be considered as corrupted (e.g. Jesus the begotten son of God but that is already mentioned in the Qur’an). Also we believe the prophets of Allah as God chosen individuals who although were human and not perfect but did not commit horrific sins (e.g. King Solomon (PBUH) worshipped many Gods, Lot (PBUH) slept with his daughters, Moses (PBUH) ordered flocks of people to be killed including kids, etc). And most importantly we reject any notion that gives God human attributes and that will include any passage that God ‘rest’, ‘get jealous’, ‘regret’, ‘saddened’, ‘weak’, ‘became human’ etc and any notion that strip God from His divine attributes such as ‘mercy’, ‘justice’, ‘all knowing’, ‘almighty’ such as God ordering long list of death penalty over trivial or lets curable matters.

Having said that, we also believe that Mosaic Laws regarding Kosher for example were divine even though we don’t follow them ourselves (although ours is very similar). So just because we the Muslims don’t observe Sabbath or follow strictly Kosher food do not mean those laws were corrupted by the Jews.

Personally any passage from the Torah, Psalms and Gospels that don’t violate Islam’s perception of God and prophets like I have explained earlier I don’t mind believing them as real. All in all, we only believe a small part was altered.

Also I would like to add one final thing. Are the Tanakh or Gospels strictly the words of God? No they are not. It is obvious from reading them that some are attributed directly to God, some to the prophets/messengers and some parts narrated by historians. So Islam is not accusing falsely that Torah and Gospels are not all words of God and therefore one cannot hold them infallible. The same is applicable in Islam through the Qur’an vs the Hadiths. The Qur’an was written down during the Prophet’s life, collected in one book by his next successor companion Abu Baker (RAA). Hadiths, on the other hand are not the same, in which some were subject to human error and that’s why we don’t mix them with Qur’an. And that’s why also when I question the authenticity of a certain Hadith, I am not considered less of a Muslim because only Qur’an is considered the infallible and protected words of God, other than that they are all open to questioning which lead to either acceptance or rejection.



I hope this post made some sense.

It has made perfect sense , in effect, if it suits Islam ,its not corrupted , if it doesnt its corrupted. and who is or has interpreted this for you. its not in the Quran so it must be Sunnah/ Hadith ,can you show me it there.
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Last edited by kai; 05-18-2009 at 03:50 AM..
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  #403  
Old 05-18-2009, 03:52 AM
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Read it all and you will find examples of where do we see the Torah and Gospels got corrupted. Try that King Solomon (PBUH) worshipped different Gods or Jesus Christ (PBUH) was the divine and son of God. Those are brief examples.
Well, you certainly haven't read my examples, of the Qur'an corrupting stories with Solomon commanding army of djinns and birds. Or Solomon communicating with birds and ants.

Isn't the Qur'an exaggerating a tad bit?

According to 1 Kings, Solomon had many foreign wives and concubines, and no doubt anger his jealously tyrannical god when Solomon started paying dues to other gods. Are you saying it didn't happen?

Why do you think after Solomon's death, that the silly god allow the kingdom to split in two?

I don't believe it in the story of Solomon in any case, but at least what the Kings write of Solomon make a lot of sense.
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Last edited by gnostic; 05-18-2009 at 03:57 AM..
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  #404  
Old 05-18-2009, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kai View Post
It has made perfect sense , in effect, if it suits Islam ,its not corrupted , if it doesnt its corrupted. and who is or has interpreted this for you. its not in the Quran so it must be Sunnah/ Hadith ,can you show me it there.

It is from the Qur'an. Well this understanding is derived from the Qur'an.
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  #405  
Old 05-18-2009, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by proud muslim
So it can be "brothers" and the Ishmaelites are considered the brothers of Israelites through Isaac and Ishmael (PBUT).

That's just lazy speculation.

You have no proof that verse 18:18 refers to Muhammad, just speculation, and worse propaganda.

The JPS translation is quite clear that "for them" and "and among your own people". No Ishmaelites were presence in Moses' Exodus, nor at the meeting of Horeb (Sinai).

Did you even bother to read 18:15-16?

Moses said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 18:15-16
The LORD your God will raise up a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed. This is just what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb, on the day of Assembly, saying, "Let me not hear the voice of the LORD my God any longer or see this wondrous fire any more, lest I die."

"...from among your own people..." hence Israelites.

"...like myself..." Well, Moses is Israelite, hence "myself" is "Israelite".

Were the Ishmaelites were ever present at this meeting...at Horeb, on the day of Assembly????

Clearly the Assembly referred to at Horeb, when they received the Ten Commandments.

All I know is that Muslims like to twist the words around to suit themselves, instead of paying attention to context, including in context of time and place.

You're argument is weak because you left out most of the chapter (18). Every other part of the chapter, referred to Israelites. The Levites from verses 1-8. And from 9-15 it talk about Israelites entering the new land, where God warned them about following the customs of other kingdoms.

Why on earth would the chapter devote so much about the Israelites and the Levites, then say (what you say) talk of Ishmaelite prophet?

It doesn't make sense, and it's not in keeping with context of the chapter.

Gnostic why have you dodged answering my question regarding John 1 19:21?

You cannot prove that Moses (PBUH) was not talking about Muhammed (PBUH) as that verse in John shows that Jewish were awaiting for a prophet. The similarities between Moses and Muhammed (PBUT) are uncanny. For example: both were great leaders of their tribes, both came with a religion, both have legal system (Moses Halaka and Muhammed Sharia), both got married and had kids, both had great battles and emerge from unpopular leaders to popular.

So i should dismiss all that because "own people" should never mean Ishmaelites according to your standard!! Even though in his next passage "brethren" was used which also means brothers. It is a fact that Ishmaelites and Israelites are considered brothers. It is not something up to you or me to decide, it is a fact. My brother is also my "own people".

But i am cool with your opinion as long as you can explain to me who was this prophet? what similarities did this prophet had with Moses (PBUH) apart from being an Israelite? and above all which prophet were the Jews talking about in John 1 19:21?
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  #406  
Old 05-18-2009, 04:15 AM
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O no! I think Fathiha's question is in vain.
Quote:
would it be that the similarities between islam and the other two religions are due to the fact that the bible and the tanakh teaches islam as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gnostic View Post
No you said the Bible is corrupted. I want details on where is corrupted, not just a "claim". Anyone and everyone can make claim. We need to see real evidences.


Bible itself states that it is worked falsely and states that it will be continued to worked falsely. here in Jeremiah 8:8

=> 8:8 How do you say, We are wise, and the law of Yahweh is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has worked falsely.

And In Galathians:

=> 1:6 I marvel that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ to a different “good news”; 1:7and there isn’t another “good news.” Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the Good News of Christ.


It is further stated in Galathians:

=> 1:8But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any “good news” other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed.

We know canons thoughout the ages in OT and NT also by follwoing link:
The Canons Of The Old Testament And The New Testament Through The Ages

You can check the link if your net working well. This link states how canons are done till 1994. Can imagine? Till 1994 bible faced canons. How verses are treated, look in the chart form above link:

Quote:
Symbols Used
Quote:
P Present
Quote:
Pn Present and fit for ecclesiastical or catechetical purposes, but does not constitute as an apocrypha.
Pe Present in the end as apocrypha
Pi Present but incomplete or some parts missing
Pm Present in modified form
Ps Present, taken from Syriac
? Disputed
R Rejected as apocrypha or spurious
M Missing, e.g., because of loss or omission in the manuscript
.Not present or not listed
Some verses are on dispute, missing, modified. Now, can we get details for how bible is preserved while treated so unjustly as described above in canons?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gnostic View Post

And we need to see the corrections to go with these so-called corruptions.

You should correct those mistakes and Inshallah when you will correct, will find Bible teaching Islam because Quran is revealed with its ultimate statement:


=> 15: 9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).


So, we don't need you to provide details about Biblical corruption, bible itself claiming that it is corrputed. Similarly we need not your statements about what Quran is because it is clear in its statement that it is preserved.


Wel wishes........

Last edited by Zindagee Rahmaan; 05-18-2009 at 04:21 AM..
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  #407  
Old 05-18-2009, 04:19 AM
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Well, you certainly haven't read my examples, of the Qur'an corrupting stories with Solomon commanding army of djinns and birds. Or Solomon communicating with birds and ants.

Isn't the Qur'an exaggerating a tad bit?
Why is it exaggerating? Because King Solomon was given the ability to communicate with every living thing on earth? Not to my belief, if that was part of his miracle then good for him.

I mean wasn't Jesus Christ according to the Gospels someone who can fast for 40 days and 40 nights in a row?? Was born without the intervention of a man? Healing the diseased and render the dead to become alive? If your mind can grasp ALL that as "ok" and believable then i wont believe a word from you regarding the attributed miracles to King Solomon according to the Qur'an.

The difference between your example and mine is huge. I am not picking exaggeration from the Tanakh/Gospels (neither were you of course), but i am picking stories that are insulting to God's prophets and messengers. My Islamic brain cannot accept anything insulting regarding God's chosen individuals.

Quote:
According to 1 Kings, Solomon had many foreign wives and concubines, and no doubt anger his jealously tyrannical god when Solomon started paying dues to other gods. Are you saying it didn't happen?
Yup am saying it didn't happen, the part with worshipping other Gods.

Quote:
Why do you think after Solomon's death, that the silly god allow the kingdom to split in two?
Because God was jealous and angry not at Solomon only but at Himself because he failed at choosing a good person?!? You see this kind of twisted sick reasoning and mentality is not accepted in Islam.

Quote:
I don't believe it in the story of Solomon in any case, but at least what the Kings write of Solomon make a lot of sense.
Yes to you who end up as Gnostic or whatever the means, but not to me.

Last edited by ProudMuslim; 05-18-2009 at 04:22 AM..
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  #408  
Old 05-18-2009, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ProudMuslim View Post
It is from the Qur'an. Well this understanding is derived from the Qur'an.
By whom? or as a Muslim can you decide which is corrupted? i know the examples you have given are the extreme and easily picked out , but there must be some concensus on what is corrupt and what is not,
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  #409  
Old 05-18-2009, 05:35 AM
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You cannot prove that Moses (PBUH) was not talking about Muhammed (PBUH) ...
Similarly, you can not prove that 'Moses' was not talking about Bugs Bunny.

As noted above, this verse, like 18:15 and 17:15 -- literally "from among your own brothers" [JPS] -- refers to members of the covenant. Parasitic attempts to co-opt these verses will fool only those who choose to be fooled and desperately wish to fool others.
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  #410  
Old 05-18-2009, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gnostic View Post
That's just lazy speculation.

You have no proof that verse 18:18 refers to Muhammad, just speculation, and worse propaganda.

The JPS translation is quite clear that "for them" and "and among your own people". No Ishmaelites were presence in Moses' Exodus, nor at the meeting of Horeb (Sinai).

Did you even bother to read 18:15-16?

Moses said:



"...from among your own people..." hence Israelites.

"...like myself..." Well, Moses is Israelite, hence "myself" is "Israelite".

Were the Ishmaelites were ever present at this meeting...at Horeb, on the day of Assembly????

Clearly the Assembly referred to at Horeb, when they received the Ten Commandments.

All I know is that Muslims like to twist the words around to suit themselves, instead of paying attention to context, including in context of time and place.

You're argument is weak because you left out most of the chapter (18). Every other part of the chapter, referred to Israelites. The Levites from verses 1-8. And from 9-15 it talk about Israelites entering the new land, where God warned them about following the customs of other kingdoms.

Why on earth would the chapter devote so much about the Israelites and the Levites, then say (what you say) talk of Ishmaelite prophet?

It doesn't make sense, and it's not in keeping with context of the chapter.
Response: The verse could not mean an israelite because the verse cleary says "from among thy brethren". The Ishmaelites are the brethren of the Israelites. If it was referring to the israelites it would say "from among yourselves" but the verse does not say that.
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