Religious Education Forum  

Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!
Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates / General Religious Debates
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-17-2009, 08:00 PM
Falvlun's Avatar
Falvlun Offline
Religion: Foam on the waves
Title:Earthbending Lemur
Shield of 10,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 10,000 posts - Issue reason: Congratulations, Lemur! Here's to many more! 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mt. Happy
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 10,457
Frubals: 884
Falvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubals
Default Agape Love vs Philia Love

In researching for a different post, I stumbled upon an interesting contradition.
Christians have adopted "agape love" as the epitome of how a Christian should love.
According to a Christian site:
Agape
Quote:
A special word representing the divine love of God toward His Son, human beings in general and believers. It is also used to depict the outwardly focused love God expects believers to have for one another.
and
Quote:
This kind of love is perhaps best expressed in Jesus Christ's statement in John 15:13, "Greater love [agape] has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends." Jesus Himself perfectly exemplified this kind of love throughout His lifetime, continually giving of Himself and His time and energies to serve others and ultimately offering up His life as a sacrifice for all of humanity. This is the kind of love God wants each of us to exemplify in our lives and particularly in our marriages.
Philia love, on the other hand:
Quote:
means "'to have ardent affection and feeling'—a type of impulsive love" (Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1995, "Love"). This is the natural, human type of love and affection that we have for a friend and is often defined as "brotherly love."
In John 21:15-16, Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him with the agapao type of love and Peter responded that he had the normal human phileo type of love for Him. Later, after receiving the Holy Spirit, Peter would be able to genuinely demonstrate agapao-type godly love, serving others throughout his lifetime and making the ultimate sacrifice in martyrdom.
source: The Different Kinds of Love Mentioned in the Bible > Marriage and Family: The Missing Dimension

But if we go to good ole Wikipedia, we get a sort of opposite rendition:

Agape:
Quote:
means "love" in modern day Greek, such as in the term s'agapo (Σ'αγαπώ), which means"I love you". In Ancient Greek it often refers to a general affection rather than the attraction suggested by "eros"; agape is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for a good meal, one's children, and the feelings for a spouse. It can be described as the feeling of being content or holding one in high regard.
Philia:
Quote:
which means friendship in modern Greek, a dispassionate virtuous love, was a concept developed by Aristotle. It includes loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality and familiarity. In ancient texts, philia denoted a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers.
Is it just me, or did the Christians flip the meanings of the words? Philia seems to me to be the more virtuous sort of love. Futhermore, the selflessness that is supposed to characterize agape love is completely missing from its actual Greek definition. In fact, agape love seems to be rather similiar to the common English definition of "love", though Christians seem to go through great pains to draw disimilarities between them. What gives?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-17-2009, 08:19 PM
Sunstone's Avatar
Sunstone Offline
Religion: Nature
Title:De Diablo Del Fora
Shield of The Jester: Awarded for unyielding commitment to humour and the entertainment of others - Issue reason:  Shield of Creativity: Awarded for wonderfully original and innovative thinking - Issue reason:  Shield of Labour: Awarded for admirable hard work and development of a cause - Issue reason: Link Exchange project Shield of the Veteran: For continued service and valued contribution over the years - Issue reason:  Shield of 50,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 50,000 posts - Issue reason: That's enough to fill a book! Congratulations! 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Colorado, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 55,018
Frubals: 7271
Sunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nest
Sunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nest
Default

When it comes to the ancient Greek words for love, everything depends on which scholar or source you look at. (Even the transliteration of the words varies from one source to another, especially in the case of "philia" -- philia, phileo, philos, etc.) Ever since I became interested in the subject 35 years ago, I've read so many differing accounts of what the ancient Greeks meant by eros, philia, agape, and one or two other words they sometimes used for "love", that my head is permanently dizzy now.

Nevertheless, I do think you are in agreement with several scholars in saying that Christians altered the meanings of the words to suite their own purposes. That, however, is a common and continuous practice the world over. Simply look at how the word "force" was given an additional new meaning by the Star Wars series.
__________________
Uncle Sunstone!!! I feel so......so.....dirty. But I feel so ALIVE!!! -- MysticSang'ha

Certainty is a mind killer -- Debater Slayer

The most precious thing in life is its uncertainty. -- Kenko

It has always surprised me how little attention philosophers have paid to humor, since it is a more significant process of mind than reason. Reason can only sort out perceptions, but the humor process is involved in changing them. -- Edward de Bono
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:10 PM
angellous_evangellous's Avatar
Religion: Christian
Title:Pater Familias
Shield of The Writer: Awarded for commendable contribution to the articles and journals at Religious Forums - Issue reason:  Shield of Knowledge: Awarded for outstanding demonstration of high knowledge in a particular field - Issue reason: This award has been given to your peers and is well deserved. Shield of The Jester: Awarded for unyielding commitment to humour and the entertainment of others - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by your peers and is well deserved. Shield of 40,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 40,000 posts - Issue reason:  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: D/FW, TX
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,961
Frubals: 3496
angellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better place
angellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better placeangellous_evangellous won the beauty contest with a speech about spreading frubals to make the world a better place
Default

Agape and Phileo are the same thing.

End of story.
__________________
It irritates me when Christians think that they're cool.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:14 PM
astarath's Avatar
astarath Offline
Religion: Ebionite
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the lord
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 1,825
Frubals: 94
astarath gargles with frubalsastarath gargles with frubals
Default

agape and philio do differ however this is one of those fun translational miscues in which a concept probably outlined in hebrew or aramaic is poorly translated into a foreign tongue and the meaning immediately contradicts the message offered.
__________________
GO TO MY BLOG
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:25 PM
Falvlun's Avatar
Falvlun Offline
Religion: Foam on the waves
Title:Earthbending Lemur
Shield of 10,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 10,000 posts - Issue reason: Congratulations, Lemur! Here's to many more! 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mt. Happy
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 10,457
Frubals: 884
Falvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubals
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunstone View Post
Nevertheless, I do think you are in agreement with several scholars in saying that Christians altered the meanings of the words to suite their own purposes. That, however, is a common and continuous practice the world over. Simply look at how the word "force" was given an additional new meaning by the Star Wars series.
Good point, and it does make sense for a group to create specific labels to better convey what they mean. It just seems to me that if Paul wrote "agape" then he meant "agape", and not some new definition that no one ever heard of before; to say otherwise is to retroactively change the meaning of his words. Unless, of course, Paul was actively re-writing the definition himself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous
Agape and Phileo are the same thing.

End of story.
The more I read the two Wiki definitions, the more this makes sense. Both refer to a general love towards family, friends, and things.

The only difference is that philia also had a "virtuous" connotation imparted by Aristotle, and means friendship in modern Greek, whereas agape means love.

I wonder what a Greek-speaking person makes of the Christian definition of agape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by astarath
agape and philio do differ however this is one of those fun translational miscues in which a concept probably outlined in hebrew or aramaic is poorly translated into a foreign tongue and the meaning immediately contradicts the message offered.
Greek was the original language of these letters, so translation shouldn't have been a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-17-2009, 09:28 PM
astarath's Avatar
astarath Offline
Religion: Ebionite
Title:Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in the lord
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 1,825
Frubals: 94
astarath gargles with frubalsastarath gargles with frubals
Default

correct was the original written language unfortunately these letters were not the originals immediately placed into a book and scripted from one to another. Rather they were dictated most likely in Aramaic or Hebrew and transcribed in greek.
__________________
GO TO MY BLOG
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-17-2009, 11:32 PM
Charity's Avatar
Charity Offline
Religion: Enthusiasm
Title:Let's go racing boys !
Shield of Peace: Awarded for exceptional effort in upholding and promoting the peace - Issue reason: This award has been given to you  by your peers and is well deserved. 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ohio
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,532
Frubals: 755
Charity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankindCharity thinks God ought to inspire the Book of Frubals to spread joy to humankind
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunstone View Post
When it comes to the ancient Greek words for love, everything depends on which scholar or source you look at. (Even the transliteration of the words varies from one source to another, especially in the case of "philia" -- philia, phileo, philos, etc.) Ever since I became interested in the subject 35 years ago, I've read so many differing accounts of what the ancient Greeks meant by eros, philia, agape, and one or two other words they sometimes used for "love", that my head is permanently dizzy now.

Nevertheless, I do think you are in agreement with several scholars in saying that Christians altered the meanings of the words to suite their own purposes. That, however, is a common and continuous practice the world over. Simply look at how the word "force" was given an additional new meaning by the Star Wars series.
Well as Christians we believe that "The Force is with us".......
And it's because of "Agape" Love
Phil, sweetie your head isn't dizzy from many differing accounts of words but from the many beers that you are consuming..........You should clear your head with a shot of Tequila ever so often.....
__________________

The problem with "common sense" is that it is so "uncommon"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-17-2009, 11:42 PM
tomspug's Avatar
tomspug Offline
Religion: Christianity
Title:Absorbant
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Roseville, CA
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,247
Frubals: 483
tomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicastomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicastomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicastomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicastomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicastomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicastomspug has no idea we replaced all these frubals with replicas
Default

I see love, rather than being a series of categories, as being a scale that leads into infinity. This is why I agree with AE that there isn't much distinction between agape and phileos (a philosophical conception, which is suspect immediately). Eros, on the other hand, is not love. With sexual love, there is an intermingling of desire and service, which clearly is more complicated or, at the very least, different from appreciation and devotion.

The clear distinction, in my mind, is that there is love through words and love through action. What better way to demonstrate love than to sacrifice yourself for another person? In my mind, there is none, which is why Jesus points to it so fervently.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Falvlun's Avatar
Falvlun Offline
Religion: Foam on the waves
Title:Earthbending Lemur
Shield of 10,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 10,000 posts - Issue reason: Congratulations, Lemur! Here's to many more! 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mt. Happy
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 10,457
Frubals: 884
Falvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubalsFalvlun certifies that no animals were harmed in the accumulation of these frubals
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by astarath View Post
correct was the original written language unfortunately these letters were not the originals immediately placed into a book and scripted from one to another. Rather they were dictated most likely in Aramaic or Hebrew and transcribed in greek.
So you are saying that it was correctly written in Greek, then translated to Aramaic, and then mis-translated back into Greek? Forgive me for being skeptical. This wasn't a one-time "error" as the agape vs phileo concept is found a few times throughout the New Testament. Also, I'm sure biblical and historical scholars would have been all over this by now if that were the case. Many people were speaking Greek back then, too, and the error should have been caught.

We are not talking about some obscure verse in Nahum. This is a major Christian concept. Is it really probable that it was simply some scribe's error?

(By the way, what exactly is the error you have in mind? Are you thinking that philia and agape got swapped somehow?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomspug
I see love, rather than being a series of categories, as being a scale that leads into infinity.
I'm not sure I see a distinction between a series of categories and a scale...

For what it's worth, I see the different sorts of love more like a network, all interconnected, all having their part, all necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomspug
This is why I agree with AE that there isn't much distinction between agape and phileos (a philosophical conception, which is suspect immediately). Eros, on the other hand, is not love. With sexual love, there is an intermingling of desire and service, which clearly is more complicated or, at the very least, different from appreciation and devotion.
Certainly there is a similarity between all the loves; otherwise, they wouldn't have all been characterized as a type of love (and yes, this would have to include eros love, too).

I'm surprised that you agree with AE though, since you seemed to go through great pains in the "Love Requires Imagination" thread to show why they are completely different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomspug
The clear distinction, in my mind, is that there is love through words and love through action. What better way to demonstrate love than to sacrifice yourself for another person? In my mind, there is none, which is why Jesus points to it so fervently.
Don't you need a another qualifier to make your distinction meaningful? "Love through words and love through self-less action." Do you really think a mother's love for her child stops at words? Of course not. Yet, again referring to the Imagination thread, according to you a mother's love is not agape love.

Besides, words did seem important to Jesus: He wanted the agape form, and Peter kept saying the phileo form.

I wonder now if Peter's reticence had something to do with the fact that the agape form more typically referred to a spousal love, and it was strange to use it towards Jesus.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Sunstone's Avatar
Sunstone Offline
Religion: Nature
Title:De Diablo Del Fora
Shield of The Jester: Awarded for unyielding commitment to humour and the entertainment of others - Issue reason:  Shield of Creativity: Awarded for wonderfully original and innovative thinking - Issue reason:  Shield of Labour: Awarded for admirable hard work and development of a cause - Issue reason: Link Exchange project Shield of the Veteran: For continued service and valued contribution over the years - Issue reason:  Shield of 50,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 50,000 posts - Issue reason: That's enough to fill a book! Congratulations! 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Colorado, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 55,018
Frubals: 7271
Sunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nest
Sunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nestSunstone lost a limb trying to raid a frubal nest
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falvlun View Post
Besides, words did seem important to Jesus: He wanted the agape form, and Peter kept saying the phileo form.

I wonder now if Peter's reticence had something to do with the fact that the agape form more typically referred to a spousal love, and it was strange to use it towards Jesus.
Some scholars dismiss that passage as most likely a fabricated conversation that never happened.
__________________
Uncle Sunstone!!! I feel so......so.....dirty. But I feel so ALIVE!!! -- MysticSang'ha

Certainty is a mind killer -- Debater Slayer

The most precious thing in life is its uncertainty. -- Kenko

It has always surprised me how little attention philosophers have paid to humor, since it is a more significant process of mind than reason. Reason can only sort out perceptions, but the humor process is involved in changing them. -- Edward de Bono
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:19 AM.


Copyright ReligiousForums.com

SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.