The Lab Rats of God. (grace, homosexuality, hell, abomination)

[Women_Of_Reason]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Read the stories in question and you'll have your answer.

Oh, I forgot. You're not INTERESTED in the answer.

Well, I read some of them, and it's seems to me that God created us and he wants us to fight the temptations that we have... For example, I'm attracted to women and according to what I know about the bible (the old testament particularly), I should fight these feelings. Is this inaccurate?

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Women_Of_Reason

Well, I read some of them, and it's seems to me that God created us and he wants us to fight the temptations that we have... For example, I'm attracted to women and according to what I know about the bible (the old testament particularly), I should fight these feelings. Is this inaccurate?

Yes and no. People tend to resort to scripture in the hope that it will provide simple, one-off answers to OUR questions. We never stop to think whether scripture has its own agenda with its attendant questions and answers. So here's how I'd parse your paragraph.

(1) "God created us." Sort of. God created humanity, and as a result of the mechanisms he built into humanity, including reproduction, we get you (praise God!). God didn't directly create us individuals, although he loves us individuals and knows us more intimately than we can possibly know.

(2) "He wants us to fight the temptations we have." Yes, I'd say that's true as far as it goes. If we're tempted to do what's evil or unhealthy or an impediment to human flourishing, of course we should fight those temptations.

(3) "I should fight these feelings (of homosexual attraction)." Here, I'd say that Christians have done homosexuals a disservice. Scripture clearly says that homosexual attraction is a symptom of the profound rupture of relationship between humans and God. Because of that rupture, everything about us, including romantic love, has been twisted in many ways. Homosexuality is only one of those twists. So is infidelity. So is sexual addiction. So is masochism. So is sexism. So is radical patriarchy. So is..... So we've done wrong to put homosexual attraction at the top of the heap of sexual vices and called it out as particularly harmful. I'm quite certain that heterosexual infidelity has done much more damage to far more people than homosexual attraction (particularly the lesbian variety) has or even possibly could do.

This lack of perspective has caused the church to do even more damage by shaming and demeaning homosexually attracted people. I personally believe that Christ's way of handling it would be much different. He would insist on sexual holiness (and wholeness), but I'm sure he would not try to enforce that by heaping up shame on people who already feel enough guilt already.

All that to say this about your comment. There is no level playing field for holiness. It may take you more effort to remain holy than it does for me. So you needn't "fight your feelings." I believe that if you are homosexually attracted, there's not much you can do to fight that. You can't make yourself be exclusively sexually attracted to men if, God help you, you're sexually attracted to women. That would be a losing fight. Yet you CAN remain chaste, that is, you can resist becoming sexually involved with a woman. This, as I've said, may be a tall order. It may also be unfair. But Christ himself said that some people are called to lifetime chastity. Some are "called" into it by force; circumstances (such as homosexuality) or perpetrated evil (such as emasculation or some other) may force the issue. Some people, heterosexual or not, would love to marry or experience erotic love with another person but are called to chastity by God so that they may avoid the distractions of the world in order to better do whatever work God is calling them to. And some others do it for their own motivations. Whatever the case, lifetime chastity is a very tall order, may be unfair, but God promises His Spirit to help you cope.

All people are called by God into a life of repentance, faith, and service. The exact shape of that will be different for all of us, and some of us will have an easier time of it than others. We can only rejoice that God is merciful. He provides means of escape from our temptations, and when we fall, he offers us a continual invitation to repentance, forgiveness, and community with fellow sinners who will love and support you.

[Namreg]

women of reason,you dont have to change anything about yourself.if you are attracted to women,so be it.no one can judge you.not even god,if a god exists.

[Women_Of_Reason]

Originally Posted by Namreg

women of reason,you dont have to change anything about yourself.if you are attracted to women,so be it.no one can judge you.not even god,if a god exists.

I'm not planning on changing anything, don't worry... But you are wrong, people can and do judge me... But I simply don't care.

[Luminous]

Originally Posted by Women_Of_Reason

I'm not planning on changing anything, don't worry... But you are wrong, people can and do judge me... But I simply don't care.

if any of it is true, in the end only God is your judge.
i dare any christian to find me scripture that even mentions homosexuals. as far as i Know (and i don't know alot) some jew wrote that God said doin it in the naughty place was an abomination (like shellfish). But if you are not born male, you will have a hard(ish) time "doin it" in the naughty place.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

(3) "I should fight these feelings (of homosexual attraction)." Here, I'd say that Christians have done homosexuals a disservice. Scripture clearly says that homosexual attraction is a symptom of the profound rupture of relationship between humans and God. Because of that rupture, everything about us, including romantic love, has been twisted in many ways. Homosexuality is only one of those twists. So is infidelity. So is sexual addiction. So is masochism. So is sexism. So is radical patriarchy. So is..... So we've done wrong to put homosexual attraction at the top of the heap of sexual vices and called it out as particularly harmful. I'm quite certain that heterosexual infidelity has done much more damage to far more people than homosexual attraction (particularly the lesbian variety) has or even possibly could do.

This lack of perspective has caused the church to do even more damage by shaming and demeaning homosexually attracted people. I personally believe that Christ's way of handling it would be much different. He would insist on sexual holiness (and wholeness), but I'm sure he would not try to enforce that by heaping up shame on people who already feel enough guilt already.

All that to say this about your comment. There is no level playing field for holiness. It may take you more effort to remain holy than it does for me. So you needn't "fight your feelings." I believe that if you are homosexually attracted, there's not much you can do to fight that. You can't make yourself be exclusively sexually attracted to men if, God help you, you're sexually attracted to women. That would be a losing fight. Yet you CAN remain chaste, that is, you can resist becoming sexually involved with a woman. This, as I've said, may be a tall order. It may also be unfair. But Christ himself said that some people are called to lifetime chastity. Some are "called" into it by force; circumstances (such as homosexuality) or perpetrated evil (such as emasculation or some other) may force the issue. Some people, heterosexual or not, would love to marry or experience erotic love with another person but are called to chastity by God so that they may avoid the distractions of the world in order to better do whatever work God is calling them to. And some others do it for their own motivations. Whatever the case, lifetime chastity is a very tall order, may be unfair, but God promises His Spirit to help you cope.

I recognize that this is a much more compassionate and respectful view than the "it's an abomination; you're going to hell" view. As such, imo it deserves a respectful response.

But as you yourself recognize, this view is still inherently unfair. To compare homosexuality to infidelity ignores the fact that all of us may at one time or another be tempted to be unfaithful to someone with whom we've made a commitment. But not all of us will be tempted to act on attraction to someone of the same gender. Yes, someone who is gay/lesbian can remain chaste. But why should (s)he have to when straights don't have to?

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Divine Spear

as far as i Know (and i don't know alot)

Great demonstration.

[Namreg]

"if any of it is true, in the end only God is your judge."i dont even think god has a right to judge.if life is nothing more than a scripted rulebook for all of mankind,then i would rather not live.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by lilithu

But as you yourself recognize, this view is still inherently unfair. To compare homosexuality to infidelity ignores the fact that all of us may at one time or another be tempted to be unfaithful to someone with whom we've made a commitment. But not all of us will be tempted to act on attraction to someone of the same gender. Yes, someone who is gay/lesbian can remain chaste. But why should (s)he have to when straights don't have to?

I'm not "comparing" homosexuality to infidelity except insofar as they are deviations from an ideal sexual expression. And yes, it is unfair that some of us may endure a heavier burden in this area than others might. Nobody said life is fair. HOWEVER, God will reward those who, despite the trouble it may cause, remain faithful through repentance, faith, and communion with the saints (who may not be so saintly all the time). God is a compassionate judge and will take into account the inherent difficulty of remaining chaste rather than taking a homosexual lover.

Besides, straight people have to remain chaste, too. There are some heterosexuals with energetic libidos whom God has called to remain single and chaste in order to do certain works. That's unfair from one point of view ("Why can they have sex but not me? Waaaaaaaaaaah!!") But from another point of view, chastity frees you from worldly attachments so you can devote yourself more fully to the work that God has appointed to you, and that work brings its own reward, too.

When I became a Christian, I had to remain chaste for eleven full years until I got married. Before that, I considered a weekend without a roll in the hay with a stranger a waste. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I wasn't exactly unsuccessful with women. I've had my share. The realization that I would have to remain chaste was the #1 reason it took me so long to convert. I saw chastity as an unfair and useless burden. I saw God as some sort of cosmic killjoy. Nevertheless, I did convert, and I did remain chaste. It was the most difficult and rewarding thing I have ever done (although I hope to remain married for several years, so hopefully that will turn into the most difficult and rewarding thing). But even now that I'm married, I find that I'm tempted by my heterosexuality. Now that I'm married, it seems that women are more attracted to me than before (or is it just my imagination?). I've had plenty of opportunity for affairs, and believe me, my strong libido and ego haven't made it easy to say no. Perhaps it's unfair that God demands my fidelity to my wife. But, God help me, that's what I have to do.

That's not to equate my experience with anyone else. I tell my story only to demonstrate that chastity is not easy for anyone. It's harder for some than for others. WOR may find it easier than I do. Perhaps harder. I dunno. And yes it's unfair. But, forgive me for saying so, so what? Let's get on with it.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Namreg

"if any of it is true, in the end only God is your judge."i dont even think god has a right to judge.if life is nothing more than a scripted rulebook for all of mankind,then i would rather not live.

God has the right to judge, and he will do so. That doesn't reduce life to a scripted rulebook. I like to think of scripture as an incompleted play. We have four acts written out for us, and some notes about how the play is supposed to end. But the fifth act is missing. Our job is to creatively resolve the story in such a way that it is faithful to the previous narrative and makes sense in light of the notes we have for the ending. So life is not simply a matter of robotically following a pre-set programming. It's a creative thespian endeavour. And best of all, we have access to the author of the play to give us creative help along the way!