Was Mohammed always a muslim? (Creator, choice, Revelation, gnostic)

[.lava]

Originally Posted by England my lionheart

at the age of 7 a child in islam is obligated to start prayer, start to practice Islamic rituals)

hi your information is wrong. until age of fourteen, they are not obligated of any religious practice. not obligated but free to do.

and he never worshiped an idol in his life even though he was surrounded by them, he always beleived that there was a being (in this case Allah) that created everything.

First ,you cannot be born into a belief and if you were why would you be obligated to start your prayers and practice rituals,is it more a case of Monkey see Monkey do or do as you are told as in many religions.
There were many belief systems long before Christianity and Muslim,Jewish,Hindu
etc and undoubtedly many with one God as in the case of Akhenaton who even built a city devoted to his God.

yes, you can not be born into a belief but each person has characteristics. even though nobody teach them to be, some kids are shy, some kids tell lie, some kids are silent...etc. Mohammad (PBUH) was one of kind who had virtues as a child. in Islam when we practice certain things, we aim to purify ego so we can have virtues of Prophets and saints of God.

of course there are many beliefs as there are today. we believe Adam (PBUH) was a Muslim who submitted to God. since religion of God was meant for men, religion was also created with creation of first man.

.

[Surya Deva]

Originally Posted by anders

Apart from that your mentioned quote isn't clear at all, and that you still can't link to the supposed poem from its suggested originator in a way that makes it possible to read it in the proposed original language, or even in a scientific transliteration, there's nothing but assertations to discuss. Those facts (do they even exist?) are for you to provide, as you're making the claims. I won't do the job for you. At least until you provide concrete material, I call BS.

Just because it's not on the internet does not mean it does not exist
Check out your local library. I am going to accept it exists, because I don't think the author P.N Oak would be that stupid to make up an Arabic poem, make up an anthology of ancient Arabic poems, when the academic community has access to these resources - it woud be academic suicide. P.N Oak's article has been in circulation for years now, there has been no single allegation against the work or poem not existing.

Just to repeat myself, not every crescent moon in the world refers to Shiva, and there is no proof anywhere that Semitic Moon deities have any connection whatsoever with Indian gods.

I never said it did

[QUOTE[You claim that Indian Ila is equivalent to Semitic Ilah. I repeat that Indian Ila/Ilaa is an androgyneuos deity, and that their name or place in the Hindu pantheon can't in any way be compared to any ilah, El, Manat, al-'Uzzah etc. in pre-Islamic sets of beliefs.[/quote]

Nope, I did not claim that Ila is equivalent to the Semitic Ilah. I claimed the Indian Ila was equivalent to the Arabic ilah. The notion that ilah is semitic is based on conjecture only, it is not fact. The Akkadian 'illum', or the Hebrew 'Elohim' has less resemblance to Arabic ilah than the Indian Ila. They are practictally the same word, except the arabic one has the addition of the 'h' sound.

Interestingly according to the this from Wikipdia, in the islamic context Ila does not refer to a monotheistic god as the words Elohim do in Semitic languages, but refers to a deity:

In Islamic context, an ʾilāh is a deity and does not necessarily refer to the monotheistic God; it can also refer to polytheistic deities, the worship of which is considered shirk "idolatry".

Ilah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So it is an open discussion on whether the Arabic ilah is the Indian Ila or the Semitic Illum, Elohim. I have already shown that phonetically there is more resemblance between the Indian Ila and the Arabic Ilah. If I can now show that there the Arabic pantheon does indeed contain Hindu gods then it becomes a lot more likely that the Arabic Ilah(Allah) is indeed the Indian Ila.

The patently obvious I have seen of this is the Arabic god Hubal and Mannat:

Arabic: Hubal

The First Encyclopaedia of Islam relates that "Hubal was an idol, made of red carnelian, in the form of a man".

According to Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar, Muhammad The Holy Prophet (1969),
About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one ˤAmr ibn Lahya ibn Harath ibn ˤAmru l-Qays ibn Thalaba ibn Azd ibn Khalan ibn Babalyun ibn Saba, a descendant of Qahtan and King of the Hijaz, more usually called Amr ibn Luhayy, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaˤabat. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraysh before Islam." According to Ibn al-Kalbi's Book of Idols, "The Quraysh had several idols in and around the Kaaba. The greatest of these was Hubal. It was made, as I was told, of red agate, in the form of a man

Indian: Ba-hubali

Anybody who is familiar with Hindu temples knows that BaHubali (Hanuman) is the great Monkey God, the son of the Wind-God. He is usually represented in red, and adorns the roof of the temple pinnacle. This is because in the great Hindu epic Ramayana, BaHubali was rewarded for his great devotion to Lord Rama, by being accorded the privilege of always carrying the Hindu flag, which is poised on the pinnacle of temples(Quoted from article: Vedic Past of Pre Islamic Arabia)

Some images showing this:
http://squierj.freeyellow.com/India2...ongHanuman.jpg
http://www.dallashanuman.org/images/hanumanIdol3.jpg


There is a resemblance here not just phonetically, but even in description. Hanuman, despite being the monkey god, is humanoid - hence why he is in the shape of a man.


Arabic: Manat

From Encyclopedia Mythica:

The ancient Arabian goddess of fate and destiny, and the personification of the evening star. Manat ("fate") is one of the daughters of the pre-Islamic Allah. Her cult was situated between Medina and Mecca, where she was worshipped in the form of a black stone.
(Manat)

From Enyclopedia Brittanica:

North Arabian goddess of pre-Islāmic times to whom a stone cube at Kabba (near Mecca) was held sacred as part of her cult. Two other North Arabian goddesses, Manāt (Fate) and al-Uzza (Strong), were associated with al-lat in the Quran (Islāmic sacred scriptures). The Prophet Muammad once recognized these...
in Arabian religion: North Arabia )
...(“the God”), Lord of the Kabbah in Mecca; he is also named in Thamūdic texts. Al-Ilāt formed a trio with the goddesses al-ʿUzzā (“the Powerful”) and Manāt (or Manawat, “Destiny”). Among the Nabataeans al-ʿUzzā was assimilated to Venus and Aphrodite and was the consort of Kutbāʾ or al-Aktab (“the...

Manat had a cresent moon symbol. The black stone was its idol and Kabbha in Mecca was the main shrine of Manat(i.e., the black stone that is still an object of worship there) In other words Manat was the moon god.


Indian: Somanat(alias Shiva)

Somanath means Moon god. It is an alias of Shiva. The idol of Shiva is a black stone(Shiva Lingam) and the Shiva's abode is called Makka!

From wiki:

The Somnath Temple located in the Prabhas Kshetra near Veraval in Saurashtra, on the western coast of Gujarat, India is the most sacred of the twelve Jyotirlings (lingas of light) symbols of the God Shiva. It is mentioned in the Rig Veda[1]. Somnath means "The Protector of Moon God".


In 1024, Mahmud Ghazni raided the temple from across the Thar Desert. Ghazni believed due to a dream that he had that the Pre Islamic Arabian goddess Manat was the focus of Somnath Temple. Turko-Persian chronicles indulge, a major poet of the eastern Islamic world, Farrukhi Sistani, who claims that he accompanied Mahmud to Somanatha, provides a fascinating explanation for the breaking of the idol.
This explanation has been largely dismissed by modern historians as too fanciful. According to him, the idol was not of a Hindu deity but of a Pre-Islamic Arabian goddess. He tells us that the name Somnat (as it was often written in Persian) is actually Su-manat, the place of Manat. From the Qur'an that Lat, Uzza and Manat two were destroyed, but Manat was believed to have been secreted away to Gujarat and installed in a place of worship. According to some descriptions, Manat was an aniconic block of black stone, so the form could be similar to a lingam.

Somnath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Surya Deva]

Shiva has many aliases in Hinduism including Somanat, Rudra, Makkeshwar(the lord of Mecca!!) and the one of Kailash. Is it a coincidence that the Arabic Pagan gods had exactly the same gods with the same name:

Suva = Shiva
Manat = Somanat
Ruda = Rudra
Dhu-L-Khalasa = One of Kailash

Check this pro-Islamic website out which mentions all the Arabic gods mentioned. It correctly identifies that black stone worship was prevalent in Arabia:

The Black Stone and its House were hardly unique. There were many such temples, called tawagheet, scattered across Arabia. Patrons made sacrifices and left gifts to their stone of choice, prostrated themselves in prayer, and circumambulated the shrines. Most commanded hajj and umrahpilgrimages during holy months.

In The Name Of Allah - Tawagheet OR Idols


There are far too many resemblances here, enough to be conclusive. The names match; the descriptions match; the rituals match; and on top of that you have Arabian-Persian records which clearly link Manat to Shiva.

It is patently obvious that the Kabba in Mecca was a Hindu temple, whose main deity was Shiva, and the black stone is a Shiva Lingam. It is obvious that the Pre-Islamic Arabic gods were Hindu gods. It is obvious Hinduism was widely spread throughout Arabia.

[England my lionheart]

Originally Posted by .lava

hi your information is wrong. Until age of fourteen, they are not obligated of any religious practice. Not obligated but free to do.



yes, you can not be born into a belief but each person has characteristics. Even though nobody teach them to be, some kids are shy, some kids tell lie, some kids are silent...etc. Mohammad (pbuh) was one of kind who had virtues as a child. In islam when we practice certain things, we aim to purify ego so we can have virtues of prophets and saints of god.

of course there are many beliefs as there are today. We believe adam (pbuh) was a muslim who submitted to god. Since religion of god was meant for men, religion was also created with creation of first man.

.

i cannot see how adam was a muslim or anything except a being,how can you know that religion was created for man surely man created religion.

[.lava]

Originally Posted by England my lionheart

i cannot see how adam was a muslim or anything except a being,how can you know that religion was created for man surely man created religion.

i believe Qur'an is word of God and that's what it says. besides that would be weird if each Prophet were belong to different religions. would be even more strange if one God had multiple religions. no doubt there are many ways but obligations remain. imo there is one God and one invitation. even if messenger was Japanese, his message to his people would be the same with message of Jesus (PBUH).

i don't believe religion is man made. but variations are. our teachings say that entire universe and everything in it was created for men and men were created for God. religion is our bond with God, a recipe to reach God. but of course everybody is free to believe anything he wants

.

[Adib]

Originally Posted by .lava

i believe Qur'an is word of God and that's what it says. besides that would be weird if each Prophet were belong to different religions. would be even more strange if one God had multiple religions. no doubt there are many ways but obligations remain. imo there is one God and one invitation. even if messenger was Japanese, his message to his people would be the same with message of Jesus (PBUH).

i don't believe religion is man made. but variations are. our teachings say that entire universe and everything in it was created for men and men were created for God. religion is our bond with God, a recipe to reach God. but of course everybody is free to believe anything he wants

.

I just wanted to give you a little laugh and say you sound like a Baha'i here.

[Gharib]

Originally Posted by Adib

I just wanted to give you a little laugh and say you sound like a Baha'i here.

maybe it is the baha'is who try to sound like us

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by eselam

you have made your point and i understand now thank you. but the thing that i'm saying is that a child is innocent and has no sins and if they die they enter heaven just as you have said. so in a way they can be called muslims right even though most people don't want that.

So you think adult muslim = innocent???? Pure?

[Gharib]

Originally Posted by gnostic

So you think adult muslim = innocent???? Pure?

no no, not all muslim adults, because there are muslim adults and then there are "muslim adults".
but from a muslim perspective all muslims who surrender their will to Allah and believe in his revelations and so on will enter heaven = innocent.
but that does not nesessaraly mean they havn't done bad deeds. if they have done bad deeds they will probably be forgiven by Allah for He is the greates Forgiver or they may just as well be punished because He also is the Punisher

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by eselam

no no, not all muslim adults, because there are muslim adults and then there are "muslim adults".
but from a muslim perspective all muslims who surrender their will to Allah and believe in his revelations and so on will enter heaven = innocent.
but that does not nesessaraly mean they havn't done bad deeds. if they have done bad deeds they will probably be forgiven by Allah for He is the greates Forgiver or they may just as well be punished because He also is the Punisher

On the question of surrendering the will to Allah, I would think it is what is called ego (in the sense of arrogance) that has to be "surrendered". Of course, when Allah is there, then you have someone to surrender to. But I think the proposition is valid even for those who do not believe in Allah, at least not in the way Islam presents Allah. “Surrendering the will to Allah” simply means giving up our ego (or that bloated feeling of arrogance), because such a feeling blinds the working of our intelligence.

May I also add that Islam is still at the level of "the other" (and therefore at heart idol worshipping?) whereas there are religions that take our consciousness to the state of oneness, where there is no "other". Such religions alone are the religions that have gone beyond idol worship.