Attack of the She-Bears...

[Yid613]

Originally Posted by inquirer_Jn1717

That's interesting. I don't have much access to Jewish commentaries (my library hasn't branched that far yet). In your translation it says "go away" instead of "go up," which seems to lead to a different understanding of the content of their jeering...?

Please elaborate, because I'm curious about the range of meaning of the Hebrew word, and also I'm not sure I follow how the boys telling Elisha (to therefore God) to "go away" really constitutes as an insult worthy of immediate judgment, whereas telling him to worship pagan gods would be.

It also says Go Away in Siotah 46b

Based on Sotah 46b
He was leaving Jericho for Beth-el but was not escorted as he should have been. They derided him for taking away their livelihood by curing the city’s water supply. They used to carry water to sell to the city. They were not children but were of little faith, with no merit. He saw that none of their offspring would have any merit. He did not verbal curse them but looked at them bring down Devine judgment upon them (according to Maharsha). A miracle or miracles accrued there was a forest, bears, and they attacked the group. Some hold there was no forest of bears before he looked at them.

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by inquirer_Jn1717

And what is God supposed to embody?

Well, if he is supposed to be the ultimate good, then he would embody morality, ethics, reason, wisdom, justice, benevolence, compassion, understanding, peace, love, mercy, etc. I don't believe he would behave like an infantile ogre. I'd imagine he would be infinitely impressive and inspiring, not underwhelmingly petty. Would a real god be so emotionally weak that they would stoop to slaughtering children over something trivial? One would think the supreme being, both omniscient and omnipotent, who created the whole universe would be waaaaaay above and beyond such human trifles. Your religion's portrayal of god makes him look like a silly two dimensional cartoon character.

[emiliano]

I always thought that there was something in the account that was left up in the air, we know that this was a mob of at least forty two individuals (young lads), I always wondered if they could have killed the prophet, that they weren’t little children and that they wanted to drive the prophet to the high places to sacrifice him in the altars of the Baal’s (the lords of the high places), in the high places. On the Morality issue, let see: some 42 + lads decided to kill and possibly used the man of God as human sacrifice, the man of God cursed them and the she bears kill 42 of them, but not scratch on the prophet and someone says it could be coincidental? I don’t think that the surviving lads of that town would try to continue with Pagan sacrifices after that, so on to top been moral (to rescue His servant) it was effective and proportionate, an Angel’s legion would have been an over-kill.

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by emiliano

I always thought that there was something in the account that was left up in the air, we know that this was a mob of at least forty two individuals (young lads), I always wondered if they could have killed the prophet, that they weren’t little children and that they wanted to drive the prophet to the high places to sacrifice him in the altars of the Baal’s (the lords of the high places), in the high places. On the Morality issue, let see: some 42 + lads decided to kill and possibly used the man of God as human sacrifice, the man of God cursed them and the she bears kill 42 of them, but not scratch on the prophet and someone says it could be coincidental? I don’t think that the surviving lads of that town would try to continue with Pagan sacrifices after that, so on to top been moral (to rescue His servant) it was effective and proportionate, an Angel’s legion would have been an over-kill.

I don't understand why god would need to use such elaborate, inefficient, convoluted methods like some divine Rube Goldberg machine? With an emphasis on unnecessary bloodshed and death no less? Being god, couldn't he simply "snap his fingers" and instantly make things so? Boom. Prophet saved. Meanie kids taught the error of their ways in quick flash of light, and grow up to be honest, honorable citizens. But Apparently God would rather delight in atrocious, sadomasochistic theatrics to sate his insecure need for revenge?

[emiliano]

Hi Father Heathen, you say:.

I don't understand why god would need to use such elaborate, inefficient, convoluted methods like some divine Rube Goldberg machine?

I like your honesty “you don’t understand”, now I don’t understand what can be your preoccupation with the story and I have no idea what a divine Rube Goldberg machine is. But let see what can we get out of this, you say inefficient, inefficient? FH there are no other story that tell us of other Lads teasing or trying to kill a baldy man of God, so it work pretty efficiently, convoluted? Well the action came from an infinitely intelligent being, and you being a finite intelligence, it is understandably that it is extremely complex to you, but they got the message, didn’t they

With an emphasis on unnecessary bloodshed and death no less?

But my dear fellow, there were more than 42 young lads bent on herding the prophet to the sacrificial alter of the Baal in the high places like an animal, how do you work out that it was unnecessary?

Being god, couldn't he simply "snap his fingers" and instantly make things so?

But you are not God, so you don’t know or understand what would work best, do you?

Boom. Prophet saved. Meanie kids taught the error of their ways in quick flash of light, and grow up to be honest, honorable citizens.

Again, you are not omniscient to know what this hooligans were going to become, but God know the future perfectly.

But Apparently God would rather delight in atrocious, sadomasochistic theatrics to sate his insecure need for revenge?

How dramatic! All I know is that it worked perfectly, the Baal were humiliated, the man of God rescued, the whole of the young lads population change their wayward ways and surely and as a minimum benefits for they city, they became respectful lads , good ah!

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by emiliano

Hi Father Heathen, you say:.

I like your honesty “you don’t understand”, now I don’t understand what can be your preoccupation with the story and I have no idea what a divine Rube Goldberg machine is.

A Rube Goldberg machine is a device that performs a simple task in an absurdly complex and convoluted way. The term comes from the name of the artist who would come up with designs for crazy devices as a serial newspaper cartoon.

Rube Goldberg machine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Rube Goldberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by emiliano

But let see what can we get out of this, you say inefficient, inefficient? FH there are no other story that tell us of other Lads teasing or trying to kill a baldy man of God, so it work pretty efficiently,

How does the fact that something happened only once necessarily make it efficient?

Originally Posted by emiliano

convoluted? Well the action came from an infinitely intelligent being, and you being a finite intelligence, it is understandably that it is extremely complex to you, but they got the message, didn’t they

Yes, all the children who bled to death after having their limbs ripped from their bodies would never taunt a prophet again.

Originally Posted by emiliano

Again, you are not omniscient to know what this hooligans were going to become, but God know the future perfectly.

And an omnipotent God would be just as able to stop the youths by showing them the error of their ways in some manner as He would be able to have them brutally killed.

[Gunfingers]

God's a jerk. He starts human life by arbitrarily telling them not to eat from a certain tree. He goes on with things like the plagues of Egypt, having the Israelites invaded and subjugated repeatedly just to make a point, and killing off Job's family so he can win a bet with satan. I'm not sure who came up with the idea of a "just and loving God", but it's not really in keeping with the way he behaves in the bible. In a lot of ways it's the best argument in favor of the existence of God i know of. If i were all powerful i'd tell people to murder their children and then say "psych!" too.

[emiliano]

Thanks for the information, not let see you say:

How does the fact that something happened only once necessarily make it efficient?

Simple, there was no need for a repeat dosage of limits setting medicine, was there? No need for a more drastic measure either, it was just right.

Yes, all the children who bled to death after having their limbs ripped from their bodies would never taunt a prophet again.

You got it! and not only them but the whole city, we have no records of other incident like it, so it was efficient.

And an omnipotent God would be just as able to stop the youths by showing them the error of their ways in some manner as He would be able to have them brutally killed.

Like I said it was just right and proportional to the situation, and Penguin you are counselling an omniscient Almighty God, God sent exactly the message that produced the right outcome, He knew that they would not obey this weak slap in the wrist that you suggest, God knew you don’t.

[emiliano]

Originally Posted by Gunfingers

God's a jerk. He starts human life by arbitrarily telling them not to eat from a certain tree. He goes on with things like the plagues of Egypt, having the Israelites invaded and subjugated repeatedly just to make a point, and killing off Job's family so he can win a bet with satan. I'm not sure who came up with the idea of a "just and loving God", but it's not really in keeping with the way he behaves in the bible. In a lot of ways it's the best argument in favor of the existence of God i know of. If i were all powerful i'd tell people to murder their children and then say "psych!" too.

I know of one that came up with the idea of a God that is a feeble permissive old man, bad news though. He ain’t !