False witnessing in Islam? (Jesus, testimony, tradition, experience, pray)

[K.Venugopal]

Islam rests most fundamentally on the belief that none is worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is His final messenger. However, I wonder on what basis every Muslim reiterates this belief in the form of Shahada (testimony) by adding the phrase “I bear witness”. The dictionary definition of this phrase is, “To see or know by personal presence; to have direct cognizance of.” What direct experience have Muslims got to declare that Allah is the only God and Mohammad is His messenger except believe in a handed-down tradition? Have all Muslims down the ages actually been bearing false witness?

[Popeyesays]

A muslim is bearing witness to his/her own belief. As such how can that be "false witness"?

Baha`i obligatory prayer contains the same phrase. "I bear witness, O my God that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. . . . ."

Regards,
Scott

[UnityNow101]

Not any more false than those who "bear witness" that Jesus died on the cross and rose again. None of it can be substantiated, whether it comes from the Qu'ran or the Bible. But people always seem to want to believe in all of it, even though NONE of it can be known through personal knowledge. I guess nobody is willing to search for themselves. They always need somebody else to tell them what they should "bear witness" to.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

A muslim is bearing witness to his/her own belief. As such how can that be "false witness"?

Baha`i obligatory prayer contains the same phrase. "I bear witness, O my God that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. . . . ."

In an obligatory prayer where a standard recitation is repeated, how does an individual’s experience come into the picture? Furthermore, in any experience concerning one’s own self, there can only be an expression, and always a unique expression. We can witness only the other, not ourselves. Shahada is about Allah, not about our belief. And Islam says Allah is outside of ourself.

[K.Venugopal]

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

Not any more false than those who "bear witness" that Jesus died on the cross and rose again. None of it can be substantiated, whether it comes from the Qu'ran or the Bible. But people always seem to want to believe in all of it, even though NONE of it can be known through personal knowledge. I guess nobody is willing to search for themselves. They always need somebody else to tell them what they should "bear witness" to.

Therefore when repetition of “I bear witness” becomes mandatory, is a sort of auto-suggestion sought to be set in motion whereby we come to believe our own rhetoric?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

In an obligatory prayer where a standard recitation is repeated, how does an individual’s experience come into the picture? Furthermore, in any experience concerning one’s own self, there can only be an expression, and always a unique expression. We can witness only the other, not ourselves. Shahada is about Allah, not about our belief. And Islam says Allah is outside of ourself.

God IS outside ourselves. He gives us an existence that is our own, so we can be responsible for what we do with that existence.

God IS inside us at the same time.

Paradox is our friend.

Regards,
Scott

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by popeyesays

Baha`i obligatory prayer contains the same phrase. "I bear witness, O my God that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. . . . ."

I can understand this: "Worship thee..."

But: "...created me...." No.

So it is based on tradition, but it still a false statement.

In reality, you weren't created by god; you were conceived by your parents, by purely biological mean. Created by divine hand, seemed only symbolic, and symbol is only a representation of what could be real, but never necessary so.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by gnostic

I can understand this: "Worship thee..."

But: "...created me...." No.

So it is based on tradition, but it still a false statement.

In reality, you weren't created by god; you were conceived by your parents, by purely biological mean. Created by divine hand, seemed only symbolic, and symbol is only a representation of what could be real, but never necessary so.

Originally Posted by gnostic

I can understand this: "Worship thee..."

But: "...created me...." No.

So it is based on tradition, but it still a false statement.

In reality, you weren't created by god; you were conceived by your parents, by purely biological mean. Created by divine hand, seemed only symbolic, and symbol is only a representation of what could be real, but never necessary so.

We also pray in times of trouble a prayer that ends: ". . . . . all are His servants and all abide by His bidding."

We're looking at a coin and failing to acknowledge it has two sides, and a rim.

Regards,
Scott

[gnostic]

We also pray in times of trouble a prayer that ends: ". . . . . all are His servants and all abide by His bidding."

We're looking at a coin and failing to acknowledge it has two sides, and a rim.

Another statement that is not true....for some.

You can only account for yourself, and not others - of who is God servants, and who actually do God's bidding.

So another it's another false statement in a prayer.

I think such prayer is window-dressing. I must admit it sounds almost poetic, but does God really need such pretension and floral in a prayer?

Sorry...Me bad with tradition. I simply don't understand such traditions....it's probably why I think they (traditions) are archaic.