islam (Creator, homosexuality, mission, prophet, pray)

[nawab]

Dude, neither can you prove that God, Satan, Demons and Jinns dont exsist just because you dont see them doesnt mean they dont exsist. Just because you dont see Pain dosent mean it dosent exsist. Just because we dont see Germs that dosent mean they dont exsist, The defficency is in Modern Science they have to come up with a conclusion to prove them wrong, Maybe in future we will have microscopes for Jinns then you can see it for yourself.

Originally Posted by gnostic

A belief or faith is not evidence. A person can believe in tooth-fairy, does that make it real. The same thing can be said about god, satan, angel, demon and djinn. Are any of these more real than the tooth-fairy? Well, I will believe if I can see them and verify them for myself, and then draw my own conclusion.

There are hundreds of myths that are about god(s), creation, flood, resurrection or some other forms of afterlife. So what makes your real, and theirs not? Can you provide evidence if your is true and theirs are false?


Perhaps, you didn't give the information properly or you're poor teacher.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by nawab

Just because you dont see Pain dosent mean it dosent exsist. Just because we dont see Germs that dosent mean they dont exsist....

Arrggghhhh!!!!!

Look, you can prove that pain, germ and any other thing to exist. All these can tested and verified, pain and germ.

But you still can't say the same about god, angel, demon and djinn. It is really not my problem if you wish to believe primitive superstitions. You can believe what you what.

Originally Posted by nawab

...The defficency is in Modern Science they have to come up with a conclusion to prove them wrong, Maybe in future we will have microscopes for Jinns then you can see it for yourself.

The problem is not science at all. The problem is you.

It is you who don't understand the nature of evidence, and the scientific method to either prove or disprove.

Modern science is NOT JUST ABOUT proving any given theory right. It is also about any given theory wrong.

Just because it can't be proven, doesn't mean what you believe in, is real. If real evidences are not there, then all these beings that you believe in are myths...until proven otherwise. It is not logical, otherwise.

I will be quite happy to let you believe in the fairy godmother or goblin if you so wish, because I really don't care, then respect my desire to count them nothing but myths.

I don't discount Muhammad as being real. I don't discount him being your prophet. But I will discount his claims of being visited by angel Gabriel and where he got his so-called Qur'an from - Allah.

There are no proof of such visitation, as any others (like Moses and the burning bush or Paul's vision). There are no proof that the Qur'an comes from your god. Or we have is story and mighty claims, but no substances whatsoever.

Anyway, don't feel bad about me saying this about Muhammad, because I don't believe in Paul's vision or visitation too.

[OutOfTime]

Yes Gnositic and it is you who's brainwashed directly by other religions into taking science & evidence as your religion.

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by OutOfTime

Yes Gnositic and it is you who's brainwashed directly by other religions into taking science & evidence as your religion.

So it takes brainwashing to use logic and demand evidence for supernatural events? The same sort of logic that allowed people to invent the computer you're typing on?

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by outoftime

Yes Gnositic and it is you who's brainwashed directly by other religions into taking science & evidence as your religion.

I don't take science as religion, I never have. My science is only high school level, though I did do computer science afterward, but that's a whole lot different science to what is taught in high school.

As to wanting evidences.

What's wrong with wanting evidences before I can make decision to believe or disbelieve?

It is those who believe without evidences supporting their belief that are illogical, and worse, childish.

Don't you think that you have been indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing, by reading your scriptures, into believing something that exist in literary texts, but not in real life?

Tell me. Have you seen real angels or real demons in your life? And I don't mean what you believe or what you have read.

Until every single one of us have seen such thing, then I will say that it doesn't exist, except in scripture, literature, movies, paintings, sculptures, etc, all from active imagination and delusions.

And this have nothing to "worshipping" science or evidence, you silly goose.

Originally Posted by zephyr

So it takes brainwashing to use logic and demand evidence for supernatural events? The same sort of logic that allowed people to invent the computer you're typing on?

It is the same sort of thinking that cause people to persecute, torture, burn or stone so-called witches, without a single shred of evidence.

Speaking of witches, a whole bunch of crazy village in Kenya, had killed 11 so-called witches - 8 of them women, but the victims were all elderly. And it is possible that they have killed more than 11.

[wednesday]

Originally Posted by gnostic

What's wrong with wanting evidences before I can make decision to believe or disbelieve?

It is those who believe without evidences supporting their belief that are illogical, and worse, childish.

Theres nothing wrong with that, some people though cannot understand why others do not simply believe.
Science can prove things, religion cannot. Science is reliable, religion is most definately not.
There is no evidence supporting God, any evidence is a waste of research time and money.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by wednesday

Theres nothing wrong with that, some people though cannot understand why others do not simply believe.

Can you simply believe in big-foot? Loch Ness monster? Fairies? Ghouls and goblins? Can you simply believe in UFO?

Can you simply believe in Zeus, Odin or Osiris?

If you can't, then why not?

Is it simply a lack of faith? Or is it a lack of evidence?

If it is the later (evidence), then they (believers) should understand that atheists, agnostics, and other non-Abrahamic people don't believe your god, prophets and religions for exactly the same reason.

Evidence can be wrong. So can faith; faith can be, not only be wrong, it can also be misplaced and misguided.

At least, with evidences, or the lack of them, we can make an informed choice of whether to follow a religion or not.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by nawab

Well, even the story of Adam is slightly differeent in the Islamic teachings, but i would have to say that in our eastern expressions we say that I have the whole ocean under my hand but it is that drop of water i desire. God gives a person small pleasures to test him if he will be diverted or not.

similarly I beleieve that the Bible itself was a Jewish Book which contains alot of eastern expressions.e.g. let the dead bury the dead, hearing the hear not, seeing the see not, these kind of expressions-In plain english it dosent make sense how can you see and not see, but metaphornically we have to understand them not just literally. I beleive Muffled would also agree on this

Just because you dont understand religion, you cannot put false allegations against anything that you dont understand.

Yes. Both Hebrew and Arabic have a different sentence structure from English. Also some things are said in a very different way from what we would say and all languages have nuances of meaning that are wider than just the definition of words and then as in english words can have several meanings and derive thier meaning from the context.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by gnostic

*Sigh*

I am not saying that. I would never blame woman for rape or anything like that. I think religion and religious people have the tendency to blame the victim, especially if the victim is a woman.

Take the case, of the church trying to cover up a priest, who took advantage of women's vulnerability. This priest sexually assaulted some women, a decade ago.

When one of these victim spoke out, the archbishop back then, tried to cover up, became involved in the scandal. This same former archbishop had been appointed by the Australian Prime Minister, as governor general for Australia. In the media interview that he set up, he blamed the woman, saying that she asked for it, instead of blaming the priest or holding himself accountable for the cover-up.

Eventually he stepped down as governor-general, because of his unpopularity with the public.



I am saying that you get some silly Christians blaming everything on the devil, instead of holding themselves accountable for their own actions.

I am not the one who believe in the devil.

People of religious persuasion have the tendency to blame everyone but themselves. I believed that people should be hold accountable, not some make-believe devil.

I don't believe in the Genesis, but according to the texts, God was the one who brought suffering to mankind, just before Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden. Or have you forgotten, God's decrees? (Genesis 3:14-19)

I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as religious to blame others but it definitely is a human tendency. Religions in general call for confession and Christianity in particular certainly does.

I would agree but that doesn't mean that the devil doesn't ever get directly involved either by himself or his minnions. In the final analysis the devil is responsible for all evil even if it is indirect. That does not make anyone less accountable for their actions.

In that case evil could only be attributable to humans which would make it impossible for anyone to be good. We get that from the homosexuals that they were born that way and can't change but the converts put the lie to that.

Here you are blasphening God again. God did not bring suffering the devil did. All God is doing is holding Adam & Eve and the devil accountable for their actions.