islam (Creator, homosexuality, mission, prophet, pray)

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by gnostic

Paul and Mohammad. Mohammad and Paul.

I don't seemed to have much respect for either one of them. They seemed to have the same trait. Both of them seemed to be humble, but both have the same arrogance in their humbleness.

Does that make sense to you?

Both have violent streak. Paul used to persecute the people which he later became, but never committed violence again. Mohammad, on the other hand, probably never involved in a war in his life, but changed afterward. Even passing sentence to those dare oppose him.

If they lived now, I couldn't trust them.

They also have the same type of experiences - visitations - which the changed the course of their lives, and yet I don't believe in either one of them. They have no evidences of these visitations which they have claimed, and you only have their "words" that they are being honest.

How can you hold Paul accountable for things that he did before he knew Jesus as Lord and Savior?

This wasn't something he chose but his righteousness became a target for the devil and his minnions and God gave Mohammed the right to defend himself.

I don't know that you could trust anyone except God. Certainly Jesus knew He couldn't trust men.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by muffled

This wasn't something he chose but his righteousness became a target for the devil and his minnions and God gave Mohammed the right to defend himself.

Another Christian excuse and logic in an illogical narrative.

Blame the devil for everything that way you can't be hold accountable for crimes or sins committed.

Originally Posted by Muffled

I don't know that you could trust anyone except God. Certainly Jesus knew He couldn't trust men.

Sorry. If you believed in the story of Job to be literally true as well as symbolically true, then I couldn't trust God anymore than I can trust Satan.

You also forget that it was God himself who brought suffering into the world....again, if you believe the Bible's Genesis literally. How can I trust a god, powerful as you believe him to be, to punish Adam and Eve for eating the fruit, when Eve was duped into eating the fruit and for him making them to fall into temptation so easily by placing the Tree of Knowledge within their easy reach.

The illogic of the Bible narrative that God is no more trustworthy as any man.

[nawab]

Well, even the story of Adam is slightly differeent in the Islamic teachings, but i would have to say that in our eastern expressions we say that I have the whole ocean under my hand but it is that drop of water i desire. God gives a person small pleasures to test him if he will be diverted or not.

similarly I beleieve that the Bible itself was a Jewish Book which contains alot of eastern expressions.e.g. let the dead bury the dead, hearing the hear not, seeing the see not, these kind of expressions-In plain english it dosent make sense how can you see and not see, but metaphornically we have to understand them not just literally. I beleive Muffled would also agree on this

Just because you dont understand religion, you cannot put false allegations against anything that you dont understand.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by nawab

Just because you dont understand religion, you cannot put false allegations against anything that you dont understand.

Sure. There is a lot of things about religion, like Islam and Christianity, that I don't understand.

But don't confuse questioning the "past and current" thinkings of not understanding religion. I don't like taking words from either scripture at their face-value, without questioning its logic.

Trust is not always a one-way street. You have accept trust as well as give them, and I can't give my trust without evidence, without questioning, and without understanding.

Think about this.

How many do you think trust the words of the Qur'an without attempting to understand and question them? I don't think we can get such statistics, but I don't think everyone would understand them in the same way as you, hence each person may or may not have the different interpretation from you.

There are Muslims who are bound to interpret the same verse that you have read, and will act accordingly that would be different from you.

My view are different from you and muffled, but that doesn't mean I don't understand them.

[nawab]

Yes, However, you also must know that if you cannot find your answers in this forum you can always go to a learned person, like I learned about Christianity from the misssionaries,first they used to catch me for a lecture later I use to catch them to teach me.

[OutOfTime]

who cares what he thinks nawab. youi can't force every one. some people wre just 'non-believers' i think the name is, that's their role. they'll always ask for 'evidence'. and when you give it to them they won't change their belief. all you can do is inform them, if they say no then their loss.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by outoftime

who cares what he thinks nawab. youi can't force every one. some people wre just 'non-believers' i think the name is, that's their role. they'll always ask for 'evidence'. and when you give it to them they won't change their belief.

That because I have yet to see a single genuine evidence that is credible and verifiable.

A belief or faith is not evidence. A person can believe in tooth-fairy, does that make it real. The same thing can be said about god, satan, angel, demon and djinn. Are any of these more real than the tooth-fairy? Well, I will believe if I can see them and verify them for myself, and then draw my own conclusion.

There are hundreds of myths that are about god(s), creation, flood, resurrection or some other forms of afterlife. So what makes your real, and theirs not? Can you provide evidence if your is true and theirs are false?

Originally Posted by outoftime

all you can do is inform them, if they say no then their loss.

Perhaps, you didn't give the information properly or you're poor teacher.

[OutOfTime]

"That because I have yet to see a single genuine evidence that is credible and verifiable."

LOL. keep looking man, good luck trying to find it. if you haven't seen it yet than you never will.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by gnostic

Another Christian excuse and logic in an illogical narrative.

Blame the devil for everything that way you can't be hold accountable for crimes or sins committed.



Sorry. If you believed in the story of Job to be literally true as well as symbolically true, then I couldn't trust God anymore than I can trust Satan.

You also forget that it was God himself who brought suffering into the world....again, if you believe the Bible's Genesis literally. How can I trust a god, powerful as you believe him to be, to punish Adam and Eve for eating the fruit, when Eve was duped into eating the fruit and for him making them to fall into temptation so easily by placing the Tree of Knowledge within their easy reach.

The illogic of the Bible narrative that God is no more trustworthy as any man.

You wouldn't know logic if you tripped over it backwards. I spent my whole life as a logistician. You're on my turf when you talk logic.

You have been on this site long enough so that you should know better. If a woman is raped you are going to blame the woman? Shame on you.

I do believe the story to be literally true. If you mean that you can't trust God to do whatever you want, you are right. You can trust God to be God and that never chamges. You can never trust Satan; he lies all the time and tells the truth if he thinks it will hurt someone.

That is a preposterous accusation and undefendable. It is a good thing blasphemy is a forgivable sin.

As you said before, everyone is accountable for their actions no matter how great the temptation to disbelieve God. And so we pray to God "lead us not into temptation."

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by muffled

You have been on this site long enough so that you should know better. If a woman is raped you are going to blame the woman? Shame on you.

*Sigh*

I am not saying that. I would never blame woman for rape or anything like that. I think religion and religious people have the tendency to blame the victim, especially if the victim is a woman.

Take the case, of the church trying to cover up a priest, who took advantage of women's vulnerability. This priest sexually assaulted some women, a decade ago.

When one of these victim spoke out, the archbishop back then, tried to cover up, became involved in the scandal. This same former archbishop had been appointed by the Australian Prime Minister, as governor general for Australia. In the media interview that he set up, he blamed the woman, saying that she asked for it, instead of blaming the priest or holding himself accountable for the cover-up.

Eventually he stepped down as governor-general, because of his unpopularity with the public.

Originally Posted by gnostic

Another Christian excuse and logic in an illogical narrative.

Blame the devil for everything that way you can't be hold accountable for crimes or sins committed.

I am saying that you get some silly Christians blaming everything on the devil, instead of holding themselves accountable for their own actions.

I am not the one who believe in the devil.

People of religious persuasion have the tendency to blame everyone but themselves. I believed that people should be hold accountable, not some make-believe devil.

Originally Posted by gnostic

You also forget that it was God himself who brought suffering into the world

Originally Posted by