If a god is truly beyond our understanding (Earth, theist)

[+Xausted]

I can reccomend quite a good book (in my opinion) on this subject.


Lash, Nicholas. Holiness, Speech and Silence:Reflections on the Question of God (England;Ashgate, 2004)

[idea]

back on topic...
I do not think God wants to be beyond our understanding...

John 16:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I think He not only wants us to know Him, I think He wants us to become like Him...

Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father (see also Father; Immortality; Perfection)
Gen. 1:26 (Moses 2:26) let them have dominion
Gen. 3:22 (Moses 4:28) man is become as one of us
Lev. 19:2 (1 Pet. 1:16) be holy: for I ... am holy
Ps. 8:5 thou hast made him a little lower than the angels
Ps. 8:6 madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands
Ps. 82:6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High
Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have
John 10:34 (Ps. 82:1–8; D&C 76:58) Is it not written in your law ... Ye are gods
Acts 17:29 we are the offspring of God
Rom. 8:17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
2 Cor. 3:18 changed into the same image from glory to glory
Gal. 4:7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ
Eph. 4:13 Till we all come ... unto a perfect man
Heb. 12:9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 3:21 him that overcometh will ... sit with me in my throne

[Bishadi]

Dear Science - God is not found through natural means, He is not found through science.

Dear Idea – Life is natural, see everything around you, and in time all matters of things will be revealed. ‘revelations’

Matthew 10:26

`Ye may not, therefore, fear them, for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, and hid, that shall not be known;

Means all of nature will be known as true rather than the worldly ‘ideas’ of things.

2 Peter 1:4

through which to us the most great and precious promises have been given, that through these ye may become partakers of a divine nature, having escaped from the corruption in the world in desires.

Where some may use the word ‘spirit’ yet not comprehend the term sold as magical phenomenon. ‘worldly descriptions’

Being able to find Him through natural means would take away our agency.

As no faith to religions will remain upon the minds of the children.

The words of deceit guiding the mind without responsibility to existence; faith in omnipotence; rapture.

In which to suggest one can be a sinner and to ‘ask’ to be forgiven from god without being responsible to existence for the atrocity, is a deceit to responsibility; false witness.

Meaning nothing will bring Sharon Tate back to life. Each is responsible for what they do and will live forever in the life they choose.

As each can type on this forum; understanding evolves! As the inquisitions took knowledge; failing to develop based on the deception of a religion, then in the end times nothing can stopped the final revealing.

James 1:26
If any one doth think to be religious among you, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his heart, of this one vain [is] the religion;

Stay honest and never think one sect is the all perfect religion; nor one is perfect in truth!

Mark 10

17And as he is going forth into the way, one having run and having kneeled to him, was questioning him, `Good teacher, what may I do, that life age-during I may inherit?'


18And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;
19the commands thou hast known: Thou mayest not commit adultery, Thou mayest do no murder, Thou mayest not steal, Thou mayest not bear false witness, Thou mayest not defraud, Honour thy father and mother.'

No man is 'good' in perfection, follow the rules! be compassionate over an above the self....

To retain a belief in supernatural is a failure to truth.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by idea

God knows everything and does everything with a purpose in mind. He was not setting them up to fail, He was setting them up to learn through experience - it was the only way to learn, He provided them with the opportunity to progress and not just stagnantly sit around...

No pain, no gain.

You can weasel word all you like, but it boils down to god setting man up to fail in order to teach man a lesson.
You sugar coated it yourself in the above quote.

[idea]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

You can weasel word all you like, but it boils down to god setting man up to fail in order to teach man a lesson.
You sugar coated it yourself in the above quote.

He did not "set man up" God did not create everything - link - stop trying to blame God for things that He is in no way responsible for making. He did not create us - we become His creation if we follow Him, He forms the ugly clay, but He did not make the clay...

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

refined in the fire. It is not His fault that it takes a "fire" to refine us. He is cleaning up a mess that He is not responsible for making - selflessly cleaning us up - that is if we choose to be cleaned up. He will not go against our agency - agency, also proof of who He is, who we are. Agency cannot be created. If we are 100% created, the creator is 100% responsible for all of our actions - we would do only what we were designed to do in that case.... instead, we have agency - you can prove it to yourself - you can think whatever you like because you were not created and you do have agency. We were not designed by Him, our agency is to blame for our problems - not God.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

We chose to come here - knowing full well the consequences. Do you know the background of what brought us here?

cut-n-paste:
If you want the entire account… here is what is in the Bible:

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael (Adam) and his angels (us) fought against the dragon (Satan); and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

What was the war in heaven over? For this, you will need to read out of the Pearl of Great Price in the Book of Moses:

CHAPTER 4

1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

What would it take to save all mankind? It would require taking away our free agency. God was not willing to do that. 1/3 of the spirits followed Satan and became the fallen angels – willing to give up their free agency in exchange for a life with no suffering and no mistakes… the other 2/3’s chose to keep their free agency, even if it meant we might not be saved. If you are here living on this Earth with a body right now, you are part of the 2/3’s who chose free agency. You have kept your first estate.

[idea]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

The words of deceit guiding the mind without responsibility to existence; faith in omnipotence; rapture.

I am a little confused - we do have responsibblity because we were not created. If God created us - then it would be His creation, His mess. Instead, we have agency, and so the responsibility falls onto our own shouldiers. Does this take away from God? Any being can create a robot. It takes a God to form another being who has agency. If we become His creation - His creation would be nothing less than He is, and He is eternal, with agency.

Stay honest and never think one sect is the all perfect religion; nor one is perfect in truth!

I am confused as to why anyone would follw a sect that states that they do not have the truth??? That it is impossible to find the truth - so don't even try? Is that the message?


Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth ...



You may mean well, but I seek the truth - the one and only truth, not a bunch of contradicting politically correct excuses that "everybody is right" to make everyone feel better - everybody is not right - obvously, it is better to state that in the open and change rather than wallow in ignorance and pretend that everything is peachy.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by idea

He did not "set man up" God did not create everything - link - stop trying to blame God for things that He is in no way responsible for making. He did not create us - we become His creation if we follow Him, He forms the ugly clay, but He did not make the clay...

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

I hope you have more than that verse to support your theory.
For to arrive at your conclusion with out any thing else is speculation at best...

Originally Posted by idea

What would it take to save all mankind?

Lets see...
613 laws didn't work..
Killing off everyone save a select few didn't work...
Sending himself to Earth to fulfill his own laws didn't work...

Wonder whats next........

Originally Posted by idea

It would require taking away our free agency. God was not willing to do that. 1/3 of the spirits followed Satan and became the fallen angels – willing to give up their free agency in exchange for a life with no suffering and no mistakes… the other 2/3’s chose to keep their free agency, even if it meant we might not be saved. If you are here living on this Earth with a body right now, you are part of the 2/3’s who chose free agency. You have kept your first estate.

I had absolutely no say in my being here.
If you believe otherwise, more power to you.

[lilithu]

My logic and reasoning neither proves nor disproves God.

At any rate, I can easily prove to you via logic that god exists.

A. Science is your god.
B. Science exists.
C. Therefore, your god exists.