If a god is truly beyond our understanding (Earth, theist)

[logician]

Originally Posted by Manipulated

That is the correct answer. Frubals

Actually, the correct answer is there is no god, the thread starter is correct in that there is no good reason to believe in a suppsed god.

[Alex_G]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

To imagine/visualise or understand a supreme all powerfull deity is impossible by humans. Thats why we have crude descriptions such as 'all powerfull'. As we have evolved on this earth, and gained attributes that are usefull for us to survive in this finite, definite world, we have trouble grasping consepts involving extremes, such as the very large, the very small, and long time periods. But there is a destinction, cognitivly speaking between grasping and understanding somthing and being aware of it via a label. One may be able to logically deal with the term 'partical accelerator', without actually understanding it. This may even be a evolutionary development to make our existence easier, and more usefull. Its within our logical thinking to analyse God as a label, and weigh up probablilities the best we can. But to actually comprehend what God would be isnt possible. It is similar to the difficulties we have in grasping dimentions exceeding our 3d world.

[emiliano]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.
Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot.
You will find an answer to this by responding to the question” Why Am I searching?” I think that your failure in this endeavour is due to the fact that you want to find a negative answer “there is no God” because there is there is one.
I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct".
Perhaps you should tell us how you do it, is your intent and pre-disposition to find that there is no God? If so You will be guiding your mind in that direction, believer in God will tell that they found Him in this way or the other way, they start indented in finding a revelation that will assure their faith.
And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension.
When a believer seek revelation from God he doe it in a reverent way, as the request of a lesser being to a superior, one with a limited intellect asking one with an infinite intellect, if God will that you can know Him He will reveal Himself to you.
That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefore created my understanding, and put himself above it, that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.
If you accept this you must also accept that He created you with a purpose, and that He is absolutely sovereign to do with you as He pleases, what if God doesn’t want you, that you are not one of His, that He knows that you will never believe, His omniscient, you know?
Do you think that God owes you anything because He created you?

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by truth_seeker

In the garden, Satan deceived Adam and Eve using the lie that if they disobeyed God they would be like Him.

I disagree.
It was not a lie.
Once they knew right from wrong, they did become more like god.
Unless of course your argument is that God does not know right from wrong....

Now if you were to say that Satan misled them...
That I can agree with.

[Bishadi]

Just keep your integrity straight at all times;

All words are created by man/women.

Man/women 'created' the terminal you type into as man created the interpretation that each culture brings to the table of knowledge.

Yet natural truth’s are absolute where man can fib by the use of words.

As evolution exists, the easiest to see is in recognizing knowledge evolves.

That pinnacle of man’s evolution is to comprehend ‘its’ existence or for mass to know how it exists within the collective existence of all mass, all energy, all time: God if you wish. As even to think isolated is in itself ignorant.

Each life that experiences choice can contribute ‘its’ energy to support, create and begin a life, thereby living within the choice well beyond the period of knowing it.

[Atmanlives]

God is the universe,we are a part of god.

[idea]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Dear Science - God is not found through natural means, He is not found through science. Being able to find Him through natural means would take away our agency. Therefore, natural things by natural means, spiritual things by spiritual means.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Cor 2:14

He did not create your understanding - if He created everything, everything would be perfect - well not quite perfect - there would be no free will... (it is God's will not free will if it is created) link

in any event, we do have free will - proof of who we are and who God is - He allows us to keep our agency in choosing to follow Him or not. It is a personal choice you have to make - not something you force yourself to believe through seeing (see to believe) or logical deduction - it is belief through choice... After the choice comes the evidence / logic – evidence / logic would force you to believe… if you do not choose to believe He will respect your agency not to believe and will not force His existence on you. That is how it works. It is your choice.

[idea]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

I disagree.
It was not a lie.
Once they knew right from wrong, they did become more like god.
Unless of course your argument is that God does not know right from wrong....

Now if you were to say that Satan misled them...
That I can agree with.

I agree - the fall was necessary for our progression strange as it sounds. There is a reason behind everything. Not knowing evil meant not knowing good. Good and evil are relative terms, they do not exist without eachother.

link

In contrast to most readers of the Bible, we believe that Adam and Eve both should be commended for what they did to bring about the Fall. We understand that without the Fall none of us could have come to the earth and the whole plan of salvation would have been frustrated (see 2 Ne. 2:25). Adam said: “Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God” (Moses 5:10). Eve likewise rejoiced: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).
The Lord gave Adam and Eve four commandments in the Garden of Eden. They were to multiply and replenish the earth (see Gen. 1:28; Moses 2:28; Abr. 4:28). They were to govern the earth wisely (have dominion over it) (see Moses 2:28; Abr. 4:26). They were not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and if they did they would experience serious consequences (see Gen. 2:17; Moses 3:17; Abr. 5:13). And they were to remain with each other (see Gen. 2:24; Moses 3:24; Abr. 5:18). In the case of two of these commandments—to multiply and replenish the earth and to refrain from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—Adam and Eve had to choose which they were to obey. Procreation was not possible for them in their immortal state (see 2 Ne. 2:22–25), yet Heavenly Father would not rob them of their agency by making the choice for them. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so.” 19 In essence the Lord told Adam that there were two directions to go, each with its unique consequences—and that Adam was to choose which one.

From President Brigham Young we learn: “Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve. Why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should. Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth; and it came upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea, and upon all things pertaining to this earth, through man’s transgression.” 20

The Prophet Joseph Smith referred to their choice to eat of the fruit as a “transgression,” not a sin (A of F 1:2). Similarly, Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “It is proper and according to the scriptural pattern to speak of the transgression of Adam, but not the sin of Adam. (D. & C. 20:20; 29:40 [D&C 20:20; D&C 29:40]; Job 31:33; Rom. 5:14; 1 Tim. 2:14; Alma 12:31; Second Article of Faith.) Lehi says, for instance, ‘If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen.’ Then he explains that while in their state of innocence in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve ‘knew no sin.’ (2 Ne. 2:22–23.) Knowledge of good and evil is an essential element in the commission of sin, and our first parents did not have this knowledge until after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” 21

Thus, by being required to leave the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve caused the great plan of happiness to go forward. Mortality came to all living things; procreation began the process of bringing us, the sons and daughters of God, to earth as Adam and Eve’s posterity. We who have come here or will yet come agreed to the conditions of mortality in order to participate in the plan, and we counted as a great blessing the opportunity to live in this imperfect world (see Job 38:4–7). While those who do not understand the plan may feel that all of us are stained with sin when we are born, we know that this is erroneous thinking. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote: “Adam’s transgression was banishment from the presence of God and bringing the physical death into the world. The majority in the religious world maintain that every child born into this world is tainted with ‘original sin,’ or partakes of Adam’s transgression in his birth. The second Article of Faith contradicts this foolish and erroneous doctrine.” 22