If a god is truly beyond our understanding (Earth, theist)

[Rolling_Stone]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

One question: If God is infinite, where is the separation? Ever hear the poet's words, "Different in degree, but not in kind"? Ever consider the difference between "primary" and "secondary" causes? Or the concept of God's self-realization expanding in time and space towards itself in eternity and infinity?

There are many, many avenues logic can take toward a conceptual frame, but the knowingness of God necessarily transcends any frame.

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

God's existence is not beyond human comprehension. We can comprehend quite a bit, however, His full existence (everything that is possible to know about Him) is quite beyond us.

[science_is_my_god]

Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone

One question: If God is infinite, where is the separation? Ever hear the poet's words, "Different in degree, but not in kind"? Ever consider the difference between "primary" and "secondary" causes? Or the concept of God's self-realization expanding in time and space towards itself in eternity and infinity?

There are many, many avenues logic can take toward a conceptual frame, but the knowingness of God necessarily transcends any frame.

This is my entire point!!! Even if I were to go against my logic and reasoning, and assume a god exists, why should I even try to understand anything about him? Why should I adhere to religious beliefs? Shouldn't I just take the neutral agnostic stance?

[Rolling_Stone]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

This is my entire point!!! Even if I were to go against my logic and reasoning, and assume a god exists, why should I even try to understand anything about him? Why should I adhere to religious beliefs? Shouldn't I just take the neutral agnostic stance?

Okay. Now I see what you're getting at. Sorry.

Belifs of any kind are merely the conceptual frame we use to relate to our life-experience. Some people experience it from within and reach outward; others simply experience it as "out there." Accordingly, they come to different conclusions and use different conceptual frames.

But there's also this: Infinity implies unity but it does not exclude diversity, even a diversity of multiple absolutes within the Undivided Whole. For example, if God is, is infinite, eternal, and is unchangeable, it follows that at least two internal relationships within his Undivided Self have always been: unconscious matter-energy and purposive energy or “spirit.” These phases of the One may be construed as Absolute in their own domains but not independent of the Original Self. Matter would be the source of human existence and spirit the cause of human existence. The Original Self would be primary cause and source of all things, but human beings emerge from a distinct secondary source (matter) and hopefully integrate with elements of a distinct secondary cause (spirit).


I understand this may all be nonsense to you. That's fine. But it gives me an internally consistent conceptual frame.

[Manipulated]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

God's existence is not beyond human comprehension. We can comprehend quite a bit, however, His full existence (everything that is possible to know about Him) is quite beyond us.

That is the correct answer. Frubals

[.lava]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

hi,

i think one of the source of problem is trying to understand God as an deity, an existence. concepts we use are like fruits of our perception, out of reality we are in. if something exists here that means it has a beginning and an end. in between two points it exists. God does not have beginning and end, that is beyond our understanding because we do not have any example for it in our reality.

each person has a limit of understanding. reaching that limit is knowing God. i am not there yet. you're not either. at that edge of our understandings, we'd be satisfied by what we've been showed. like a bottle full of water. completed. but still, even that perfection of individual (including Prophet's) could not explain how God is without end and beginning. which i think therefor God only could be admired after certain point, instead of knowing and understanding.

[emiliano]

PROSLOGION
Chapter 3: That God Cannot be Thought Not to Exist
In fact, it so undoubtedly exists that it cannot be thought of as not existing. For one can think there exists something that cannot be thought of as not existing, and that would be greater than something which can be thought of as not existing. For if that greater than which cannot be thought can be thought of as not existing, then that greater than which cannot be thought is not that greater than which cannot be thought, which does not make sense. Thus that than which nothing can be thought so undoubtedly exists that it cannot even be thought of as not existing.
And you, Lord God, are this being. You exist so undoubtedly, my Lord God, that you cannot even be thought of as not existing. And deservedly, for if some mind could think of something greater than you, that creature would rise above the creator and could pass judgment on the creator, which is absurd. And indeed whatever exists except you alone can be thought of as not existing. You alone of all things most truly exists and thus enjoy existence to the fullest degree of all things, because nothing else exists so undoubtedly, and thus everything else enjoys being in a lesser degree. Why therefore did the fool say in his heart "there is no God," since it is so evident to any rational mind that you above all things exist? Why indeed, except precisely because he is stupid and foolish?
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/anselm.html

[Ashley-Yin]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

heres a thought on the bible(gods word) its either beyond our understanding there for so is god or it is mostly contradiction
in actuality the whole christian faith anyway disproves its self in my mind because no one has been able to explain away the contradictions.

and to make clear i believe in all gods but as other worldly(like the animal world) we are not the exactly the same but we can understand them.