If a god is truly beyond our understanding (Earth, theist)

[science_is_my_god]

Originally Posted by Don Penguinoini

Why does god create everything? Why can't we develop things ourself?

I would agree with this statement. I think a lot of things have less "divine creation" and more mundane aspects to them than most theists suspect.

[GadFly]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Yes, I have thoughts on this. Here these come.

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot.

Nobody could possibly accept the notion of God. Like I told you before that would be like trying to put all the oceans of the world in a thimble. God does not require us to have a complete image of God in our minds. He knows that would kill us. Remember Moses asked God on the mountain: "Who are You?" and God said: "I am that I am." That was enough, for all God wanted was for man to know without doubt that God was and is, that God does exist.

That is why God left all the clues behind for us to find enough evidence to believe in God. God in fact would kill us. The one requirement God has made for man to be saved is that man must believe that God is. God did leave enough evidence to convince any reasonable person of his existence. Most of you already know what those things or evidences are that offers 100% proof of the existence of God. As stubborn as some people are in this, I sometimes wonder if some where not intended to believe in God, but in my heart, I know that is wrong too.

[science_is_my_god]

Originally Posted by stephenw

Why do you think God would want you to believe in Him?

I've come to the conclusion that even if a god exists, he does not want my belief in him.

[GadFly]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I've come to the conclusion that even if a god exists, he does not want my belief in him.

O' poor thing. If God did not want you to believe in him, why did he send Jesus Christ to fetch you and show you the way?
GadFly

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

... if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Sorry, but this impresses me as a woeful example of "logic and reasoning."

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Don Penguinoini

Why does god create everything? Why can't we develop things ourself?

Because God's creation lies in us developing things ourselves?

[3.14]

so god is like a lab assistance putting rats into a large cage geneticly creating them diffrent and watching them run aroud while writing down its findings but when te rats evolve past gods desighn he doesn't stop them he just waits to find out what they will do. though god created them it does not mean he has a better understanding of wat it is to be a "rat"

[Don Penguinoini]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Because God's creation lies in us developing things ourselves?

That is if you believe we are a created species.

[Paraprakrti]

Originally Posted by science_is_my_god

I often use logic and reasoning to try to grasp the notion of a "god", and although I have tried many times before to accept a god's existence, I cannot. I argue to theists my logic, my reasoning, even my "gut instinct". And yet, many times I hear the arguements that a god's existence is beyond human comprehension. That I cannot use my logic to logically analize my logic, because it could be flawed. And quite frankly, I agree. However, if such an arguement is used, a god could NOT possibly want our belief in his existence. Why? Because if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

Does anyone agree/disagree? Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Us Vaisnavas believe that souls are part and parcel of the eternal God and thus are eternal themselves. And by "eternal" I mean both forward and backward; that is, without beginning and without end. At some point in our inconceivable existence, we came into contact with this material nature. This "material nature" defaults to darkness, ignorance, etc. One obvious example of this is that we require the sun for light, otherwise the universe is in darkness. We came into contact with this material nature when our desires were, in general, to act and enjoy independently of God. Of course, if God is the eternal reservoir of enjoyment, then such a thing isn't actually possible. But so far as it goes for us practically, the illusion of independence suffices. So the universe has the purpose of covering our knowledge of God because we desire feeling independent.

On the other hand, I do not think it is necessarily illogical to consider that reality consists, first and foremost, of some eternal entity that contains within it and is the origin of all potencies and qualities we experience on this relative platform. This is the basic philosophy that leads to what we generally call "God." Considering the matter intelligently, I find no real substance or basis in thinking that reality is nothing more than the fleeting interactions between fleeting bodily senses and fleeting sense objects. And I feel the "God is beyond human comprehension" explanation is often a cop-out; a premature surrender.

[truth_seeker]

... if he created the universe, and therefor created my understanding, and put himself above it,that either means he created my understanding by accident, or that he intended me to disbelieve in him.

In the garden, Satan deceived Adam and Eve using the lie that if they disobeyed God they would be like Him. Even from the very beginning humans have reach for the understanding that they could not possess. I understand your position but disagree with your conclusion. Yes God did create the world and He did create the human mind and with it the ability to understand. But your conclusion only gives two choices, and there is a third. Perhaps, we are simply meant to use the logic and reasoning we were given to understand as far as we can and believe on Him for the rest. Belief does not have to be dependent on our understanding. I am not talking about blind faith, I am simply talking about letting reason take you far as you can and letting faith get you the rest of the way. Because in this end isn't that what everything is based on?

I've come to the conclusion that even if a god exists, he does not want my belief in him.

God does not intend for us to idly search for Him. He has left His mark everywhere...we just choose to deny it.
Romans 1:19-20 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."