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#21
04-19-2008, 02:39 PM
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Hello lunamoth
Id love to hear more of why you believe that when you are baptised you are born again. Perhaps you can elaborate a little?  Love Heneni 
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#22
04-19-2008, 03:29 PM
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Hi Heneni
Someone who has been born again was chosen before the foundations of the world to be born from above. Howevever, union with Christ occurs when that person hears the gospel. I really enjoyed reading your postings.  Ephesians 1-2 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 04-19-2008 at 03:35 PM.
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#23
04-19-2008, 04:25 PM
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While we are waiting for more posts, id just like to recap on what I think BORN AGAIN means.
It is literally when you are BORN from a mothers womb, BUT the spirit in that body has been sent into that body by the will and design of God and not because of your parents human desire to have you here. This spirit is a spirit that can testify to truth. The Holy Spirit was hovering over the deap darkness in your mothers womb at your conception. Your mom and dad still got up close and personal, BUT they were completely unaware of what was going on. You are not born again, when you accept the lord Jesus as your lord and saviour. As you grow up, at the appointed time, God draws you to him, and you are drawn to him since the HS has not left you since the time you were conceived. It is the HS that causes you to be drawn to God. The HS has been resting on you since you were conceived, and it is this spirit which SEALS you as a child of God. Its like a mark on you, that you are BORN OF GOD. When you hear the gospel, your spirit which has now been incarnated, born by the will of God, testifies to the truth, and you accept the truth, since you have the spirit of truth in you. Since you believe the truth in your heart, that which is in your heart, comes out of your mouth, and you CONFESS the truth. The spirit that does not confess is said to be the spirit of the anti-christ. This spirit does not and will not confess to the truth. This is of course a huge problem. What if we are confessing all the right things but our confessions and our beliefs are based on lies taught to us by our pastors and teachers? If you are BORN of GOD he WILL lead you to the truth, but confessions made based on incorrect knowledge is no confession at all. If you are Not born of god, you could be in church, a deacon, a pastor, a bishop, a TV personality, it will not mean you are born of God. The gospel, in its entirity is revealed to us by the same HS that has been with us all along. What is the evidence that you are BORN OF GOD, i. e your spirit has now entered this earth by the will and design of God? You do not continue to sin, but you use the power of the ressurection to overcome sin. You are a SON of GOD, and sons overcome the world, and they overcome sin. They are kept safe , since the seed of God remains in them. They love the light more than they love the darkness. Does this mean that when you are BORN of GOD, you never sin. NO! It means you have the power to overcome, and as soon as you realise you have the power to overcome, you must use that power to overcome the sinfull desires that make war in you body against the spirit. At this point you might reflect back on your life, and think of all the things that you have done, not knowing that the HS was around while you were doing these things. You grieved the HS. And I can gaurentee you that even though you were doing those things, you always felt that perhaps you should not be doing it.....thats the HS. Those that were IN him, were ressurected. Were you IN Christ? So that means you were resurrected AT THAT POINT and you were saved right then and there. But you were not BORN again. God was waiting for the opportune and predestined time for you to enter this world. When the bible says you WILL be saved, it means that you will be saved from judgement, and from being eternally seperated from God, and from your natural physical body that is forever at war with your spirit. Instead we will be with god, which is the reason he saved you in the first place. This is why we have to WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling. We must not take lightly that which God has done for us. What is your birthdate? Is it the day you are born? No, that is your time of entry. There is one very clear and definite piece of evidence that we can use to know if someone has been born of God, or incarnated. Or rather for yourself to know if you have been born of God. They love! They love GOD. And they love their brothers. They love those that have been incarnated as well. They have crucified the flesh! They are not living according to the dictates of the flesh, but they are living according to the dictates of the spirit. No one can live according to the dictates of the spirit unless they have been incarnated. The flesh can not follow the dictates of the spirit. This of course is a process and we are told to GROW in love. So what if we do sin while we are incarnated? Well, if you have been incarnated, it is NOT you doing the sinning, but it is the flesh. Whatever our hearts condemn us in regards to this, GOD is Greater than our hearts. But notice...our hearts will condemn us, since we know we are doing something wrong, but we also know that we are not obligated to the flesh and have crucified it, so we no longer have to satisfy its needs, since we are not born of flesh, we are incarnated, born of god. If we did not have a fleshly body we would never sin. This is why Paul said, who will save him from his wretched BODY!!! He said Jesus will, and Jesus will do that when the fleshly body is replaced by a spiritual body, that will not be at war with your spirit all the time. But for now, it is gods will for us to be in a natural body since we have to learn to overcome.
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#24
04-19-2008, 05:15 PM
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Hello Fish!
Its nice to debate with someone about this. You are absolutely right about being predestined....that ofcourse opening up a whole new 'can of worms'. You said: Someone who has been born again was chosen before the foundations of the world to be born from above. Howevever, union with Christ occurs when that person hears the gospel. I really enjoyed reading your postings. Fish, what do you consider to be union with Christ? I think if I understand correctly you feel that we are united with Christ when we hear the gospel. Did you see my posts before, about when the gospel was first preached? To Israel, to the spirits in prison, and there is a scripture about the gospel preached to the dead. Im not saying ofcourse that the gospel must not be preached now, im saying that IF you hear the gospel, and you believe it, its because your spirit is testifying to the truth. So that implies you must have heard the truth before, since now you are testifying (agreeing) with what you are hearing. Anyway...about the point where you 'unite' with christ. Would you consider being IN christ as being united to him? If you do, then you were already united with Christ on the cross, since you were IN him then. And if you were IN him on the cross, you were ressurrected as well, and it is when you were resurrected that you were saved. And so...you were predestined to be incarnate at a PARTICULAR time, and you will bear the image of Christ, since being born of God means that you conform into the image of Christ. The fact that you were predestined from the foundations of the world should help to clarify, that you were born from natural desire first, before christ came, and under the law, and then you were born again, under grace. But you cannot be born under grace, unless you were born under the law first. Jesus came to put away what the bible calls the first to establish the second. Now you must be thinking when were you born under the law? I cant tell you, but I can tell you that you were born naturally, by human desire, and a slave to sin, and not free, which is why Jesus had to come and save you, pay a randsom for your freedom so that you could be set free from the law, and free from slavery to sin, and free from the master of all the slaves. . 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Jesus was the FIRSTBORN...you are somewhere after that....be it number 4475984353 im no sure. Jesus was incarnated, she he was the first to be incarnated, and you must follow. Look at this scripture: 13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit The scripture says we live IN him, because he has given us....not the HS, but OF his spirit. The spirit of truth. Recieving OF his spirit, means being Born OF the spirit of God. We do not get a piece of God, when we say the sinners prayer. I was trying to find all the scriptures that have the words 'IN HIM' or 'IN CHRIST' but I cant find them on my software right now, have to learn how to use it properly. But when you read your bible, just see what you make of the scriptures that have these words in them, and then make sure to check the TENSE that the scripture is written in. Hope to hear from you again. Lots of love Heneni.
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#25
04-19-2008, 07:07 PM
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2 Corinthians 4 Treasures in Jars of Clay Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 04-19-2008 at 07:11 PM.
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#26
04-20-2008, 08:51 AM
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You were saved on the cross. You are born again when you are incarnated.
We tend to forget that not only did Jesus die on the cross, we died too. Romans 7: 4So, my brothers, you also died (past tense) to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Paul was talking to people that were alive, but he told them, that they had died. He said that they died to the law, since the only thing the law resulted in was bearing fruit for death. This death resulted in their spirits at death returning to darkness. So they had to have someone come and rescue, save and translate them out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light. When did they die? Their spirits died when they died with Christ. Their spirits existed when jesus died on the cross. What did that result in? It resulted in being released from the law. But to be released from the law, you have to truly die! Their spirits HAD to die! But then, they were resurrected from the dead, and their spirits made alive again, but this time under grace. It is from the place you went when you were resurrected that you are INCARNATED into this world. Dying to the law, meant being released from the hold the sin master had over them. Since he had posession of you , only because you could not adhere to the law, but by dying, you were released from the law. The only way to get away from satan was to give up! And to cease to exist. The only way to get away from the sin master, was to die for eternity. So there was no hope of ever having a way back to the kingdom of light. When you died with Christ on the cross, and I mean your spirit literally died, you were released from the law. It means your spirit said a la vista baby, and died. But guess what? Jesus raised you from the DEAD! And you were resurrected with him. And that is the miracle of salvation! If it wasnt for Jesus you spirit would for ever been under the slave masters control, and you would have had NO way to return to the kingdom of God. The only way to get away from Satan would be to completely die! You would have had to be NO more. But Jesus was the fullfillment of the law. He was the one that could completely do what the law required. And since you trusted in the Name of Jesus you trusted in him to set you free from the sin master and be a randsom for your release. And after this happened you belonged to another, you belonged to Jesus. It resulted in you being transferred out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light, and therefore you now belonged to 'another'. You could not be transferred into the kingdom of light with sin on you, so your sins were forgiven, and you were washed and cleaned by the blood of Jesus, so that you could be tranferred into the kingdom of God, without spot or blemish. The transfer happened at the cross, not when you accept Jesus as your lord and saviour. When you are born again, i.e incarnated, you are born, in a world full of darkness, your spirit being light, but you are born into a world full of darkness. Your incarnated spirit is the light in this darkness. Matthew 5: 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. [1] Your spirit once belonged to the the master of darkness, a slave to this master. A slave may not and can not leave their master, unless they are bought. Jesus bought us from the slave master. Eph 5:8 8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Colosians 1: 13 . 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,E the forgiveness of sins. Have you ever wondered what Jesus meant when he said, the first will be last and the last will be first. I think he meant, those that were born first of the natural desire of a man and a women, would be incarnated last, and those last born of the natural desire, would be incarnated first. When did time start? At adam? Well I guess you could say so. When did time restart? After Jesus. Hence time is now referenced as AC or BC . I believe we were all once living in the period BC and we all live in the time AC. If you think about it, we are all on a journey to return back to paradise, where time started for the first time. Jesus said it is FINISHED, and then he got us started again. Love Heneni Last edited by Heneni; 04-20-2008 at 09:07 AM.
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#27
04-20-2008, 10:12 AM
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It appears you might be missing that Adam and Christ represent humanity. When Christ died on the cross, all who will ever believe in Him died with Him in the sense that Christ represented those who would believe. Those who will believe are born united to Adam until they believe in Christ. Since they are united to Adam, they are children of darkness under the wrath of God, until they receive Christ crucified on their behalf. They are dead in their sins and trespasses, until God makes them alive again through the means of preaching. Incarnation means God in the flesh. Christians do not become Gods in the flesh at the new birth.
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 04-20-2008 at 10:21 AM.
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#28
04-20-2008, 02:03 PM
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