For Those Who Believe in the Story of Lucifer (bible, God)

mball1297 · #1 03-28-2008, 12:14 PM

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

tomspug · #2 03-28-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mball1297

For those who believe this story, how do you reconcile the idea of an angel, a being without free will, choosing to not do God's will? I'm honestly curious. This isn't supposed to be some kind of back-handed insult.

If an angel chose not to do God's will, obviously the angel would, by necessity, have had free will. I don't see the dilemma of Lucifer as any different from the dilemma of humanity.

mball1297 · #3 03-28-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomspug

If an angel chose not to do God's will, obviously the angel would, by necessity, have had free will. I don't see the dilemma of Lucifer as any different from the dilemma of humanity.

It's just that every time I've heard the story, it talks about Lucifer's anger over the fact that humans had free will, and the angels didn't. So, that's why I wonder how you reconcile that with his going against God's will. I know not everyone believes this, but this is directed toward those who do.

rheff78 · #4 03-28-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mball1297

It's just that every time I've heard the story, it talks about Lucifer's anger over the fact that humans had free will, and the angels didn't. So, that's why I wonder how you reconcile that with his going against God's will. I know not everyone believes this, but this is directed toward those who do.

Well, angels did have free will, hence the story. But Lucifer (and anyone correct if I'm wrong here) wasn't necessarily upset about humans having free will, but that he viewed God as putting humans above angels.

mball1297 · #5 03-28-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rheff78

Well, angels did have free will, hence the story. But Lucifer (and anyone correct if I'm wrong here) wasn't necessarily upset about humans having free will, but that he viewed God as putting humans above angels.

I understand. This is why I ask. The way I've heard it the angels didn't have free will, and that's why Lucifer thought God was putting humans above angels. Maybe I've just heard a different version then most, but that's part of my question, I guess.

ChristineES · #6 03-28-2008, 12:52 PM

I used to believe what was commonly taught me in Sunday School about Lucifer being an angel, but there is no place in the bible where Lucifer is called an angel.

EtuMalku · #7 03-28-2008, 12:53 PM

I am just curious as to where this Lucifer story comes from?
If there is a link to read it that would be appreciated.
I'll stay outta this one since I do not see Lucifer in that Light.

Random · #8 03-28-2008, 12:58 PM

When we talk about Lucifer here, I take it we are not referring to the title of the Babylonian king criticised by Isaiah in the Bible, or the title attributed in said book to Jesus in the NT? Ok...

So then, we are referring to the Light-bringer, the Morning Star, the Angel...but in an extra-Biblical context, because he is Fallen: as according to St. Jerome who gave the concept the authority of tradition, which was later picked up by Milton and other poets and mythographers. Correct? So we're really talking the Paradise Lost scenario, which is according to some a fictionalized dramatic piece. Yes?

We need to know what we mean when we say "Lucifer", that's all. Can we agree before speculating as to whether he is (as is being assumed) one and the same as the figure of Satan, the tempter/opponent of God?

Now maybe Paradise Lost is based on some esoteric secret the Church held for a long time, maybe its a published dramatic rendition of some hidden Scriptural thing we did not know about...maybe. I don't know.

I do not believe that angels (if they exist as claimed) would have freewill, in that I agree with the Islamic interpretation of their divine nature. Yet that does leave us with a quandry...how could Lucifer, IF the Paradise Lost story is true, disobey and enter into conflict with God and his all-pervasive Deterministic creation?

The only answer I can think of, again assuming the conceit of Paradise Lost scenario being true, is that maybe Lucifer as the original leader of the Angels had a sort of freewill so that he could perform the function God set him.