The morality of Jesus' sacrifice (punishment, Earth, crucifixion, Kingdom)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Easter gets me to thinking about one of the biggest stumbling blocks that I have when it comes to Christianity: the idea of the sacrifice of Jesus.

A few years back, I saw a preacher who talked about the sacrifice of Jesus and how it related to our debt of sin. He said that, thanks to Jesus, when each of us is brought to our final judgement, there will be a statement of account for the debt incurred by our transgressions, but at the bottom, rather than giving the final amount owing, for Christians it will simply say "paid in full".

Now... here's my question: why couldn't it say "no charge" instead?

I can understand Jesus' sacrifice from one point of view: it seems very noble and selfless to me to suffer and to give one's life for others. From another point of view, though, it seems abhorrent: why would God the Father (or whoever you believe demanded the sacrifice) require Jesus to be the sacrificial "Lamb of God" rather than just erasing the debt of sin in a way that did not require any suffering at all? How is it just or right to inflict the most awful punishment possible on the most innocent person ever?

I see a situation as analogous to the ideas that are presented by the Bible and contemporary mainstream Christianity:

Imagine a family. The father has discovered that a lamp has been broken by one of the children. "Who did this? Someone needs to be punished. I'm taking off my belt."

The oldest child speaks up, "Timmy did it, but he's too weak to take a beating. Punish me instead."

"Well, okay. I know you didn't do it, but as long as someone gets a whuppin', that's all right by me."

What would you think of the father in that scenario? Why should we think of a God that would demand the sacrifice of Jesus any differently?

[angellous_evangellous]

The sacrifice of Christ is a natural outpouring of his teachings. He taught that for us to be in the kingdom of God, we have to die a sacrificial death. His teachings of non-resistence and submission to tyrannical authority naturally means that he would eventually die a death like crucifixion. The simpliest answer I think to your question is that Jesus had to die because the world was and is not as it should be.

There are people asking for our clothes, our money, and striking us on the cheek. As long as that happens there will be sacrificial death.

[whereismynotecard]

Well... I see this as just another hole in the entire theory of all of this religious stuff...

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

The sacrifice of Christ is a natural outpouring of his teachings. He taught that for us to be in the kingdom of God, we have to die a sacrificial death. His teachings of non-resistence and submission to tyrannical authority naturally means that he would eventually die a death like crucifixion. The simpliest answer I think to your question is that Jesus had to die because the world was and is not as it should be.

There are people asking for our clothes, our money, and striking us on the cheek. As long as that happens there will be sacrificial death.

So you see Jesus' death as the consequence of his ministry on Earth rather than as some sort of religious sacrifice? What do you make of the idea of Jesus as the "Lamb of God"?

While I understand your explanation, I think there's a strongly-held idea in mainstream Catholic and Protestant teaching that Christians are saved more by Jesus' death than by his life.

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Easter gets me to thinking about one of the biggest stumbling blocks that I have when it comes to Christianity: the idea of the sacrifice of Jesus.

A few years back, I saw a preacher who talked about the sacrifice of Jesus and how it related to our debt of sin. He said that, thanks to Jesus, when each of us is brought to our final judgement, there will be a statement of account for the debt incurred by our transgressions, but at the bottom, rather than giving the final amount owing, for Christians it will simply say "paid in full".

Now... here's my question: why couldn't it say "no charge" instead?

I can understand Jesus' sacrifice from one point of view: it seems very noble and selfless to me to suffer and to give one's life for others. From another point of view, though, it seems abhorrent: why would God the Father (or whoever you believe demanded the sacrifice) require Jesus to be the sacrificial "Lamb of God" rather than just erasing the debt of sin in a way that did not require any suffering at all? How is it just or right to inflict the most awful punishment possible on the most innocent person ever?

I see a situation as analogous to the ideas that are presented by the Bible and contemporary mainstream Christianity:

Imagine a family. The father has discovered that a lamp has been broken by one of the children. "Who did this? Someone needs to be punished. I'm taking off my belt."

The oldest child speaks up, "Timmy did it, but he's too weak to take a beating. Punish me instead."

"Well, okay. I know you didn't do it, but as long as someone gets a whuppin', that's all right by me."

What would you think of the father in that scenario? Why should we think of a God that would demand the sacrifice of Jesus any differently?

That's a very good question. The technical reasons behind this are the subject of some 'deep doctrine' talks. But it can be more easily understood that sinful beings are incapable of dwelling with God. Our nature doesn't allow it. So in order to become clean we need to pay the price for our sins. But as mortals it is impossible for us to pay the price of our sins and survive. The price being pain and death. But if we are death we can't return to live with God. We need Mortal bodies to do that. So the only way was for Christ to be born of the Father and the mortal Mary. Thus he posessed the ability to remain sinless and be immortal. Immortality allowed Him to suffer for our sins and not die. But death was also important. So after He suffered for our sins in Gethsemany(sp) He gave his own life for us. Also due to His godly nature He was able to reunite His body with His spirit and thus allow all of us to overcome death.

So basically without Christ it would be impossible for us to return to Heavenly Father because of our imperfect condition.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

So you see Jesus' death as the consequence of his ministry on Earth rather than as some sort of religious sacrifice? What do you make of the idea of Jesus as the "Lamb of God"?

While I understand your explanation, I think there's a strongly-held idea in mainstream Catholic and Protestant teaching that Christians are saved more by Jesus' death than by his life.

We are saved by the resurrection of Christ according to the mercy of God - which isn't possible without his death... Christian theology is a diamond or a prism, there is more than one way to look at it, but it is difficult to reduce to a precise sentence and rail on it if you know what I mean.

Anyway, the way of death and resurrection is the way of renewal of all things in Christianity. We are lead to death if we are to be a disciple - Jesus said that those who follow him must take up their cross. That's the only way to turn the other cheek and participate in the kingdom of God = humility and self-sacrificing service.

EDIT: Jesus as the Lamb of God is a difficult concept to me. I think that it speaks more meaningfully for the passive, submissive nature of Christ - being sacrificed according to his teachings - than being a perfect, spotless sacrifice. Only from the perspective of God is Jesus perfect, and only God can know what that means, because only God experiences perfection. To us it remains a mystery how God can love us and yet leave the world in such a pitiful state.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Sola'lor

That's a very good question. The technical reasons behind this are the subject of some 'deep doctrine' talks. But it can be more easily understood that sinful beings are incapable of dwelling with God. Our nature doesn't allow it. So in order to become clean we need to pay the price for our sins. But as mortals it is impossible for us to pay the price of our sins and survive. The price being pain and death. But if we are death we can't return to live with God. We need Mortal bodies to do that. So the only way was for Christ to be born of the Father and the mortal Mary. Thus he posessed the ability to remain sinless and be immortal. Immortality allowed Him to suffer for our sins and not die. But death was also important. So after He suffered for our sins in Gethsemany(sp) He gave his own life for us. Also due to His godly nature He was able to reunite His body with His spirit and thus allow all of us to overcome death.

So basically without Christ it would be impossible for us to return to Heavenly Father because of our imperfect condition.

I've heard similar descriptions before, but my big question is why? Why would the only way to restore balance to the universe, put aside humanity's debt of sin, or whatever else you believe that Christ's sacrifice accomplished, involve the death and horrendous suffering of the one person completely undeserving of any of it? How could it be anything other than horribly unjust to demand that?

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

We are saved by the resurrection of Christ according to the mercy of God - which isn't possible without his death... Christian theology is a diamond or a prism, there is more than one way to look at it, but it is difficult to reduce to a precise sentence and rail on it if you know what I mean.

Anyway, the way of death and resurrection is the way of renewal of all things in Christianity. We are lead to death if we are to be a disciple - Jesus said that those who follow him must take up their cross. That's the only way to turn the other cheek and participate in the kingdom of God = humility and self-sacrificing service.

EDIT: Jesus as the Lamb of God is a difficult concept to me. I think that it speaks more meaningfully for the passive, submissive nature of Christ - being sacrificed according to his teachings - than being a perfect, spotless sacrifice. Only from the perspective of God is Jesus perfect, and only God can know what that means, because only God experiences perfection. To us it remains a mystery how God can love us and yet leave the world in such a pitiful state.

Jesus as the Lamb of God is a difficult concept for me, too. I think may be a bit fixated on the sacrificial aspect because it's so heavily emphasized in Catholicism, and lately that's been my main exposure to Christianity. The liturgy of the Eucharist kind of reinforces the view that Jesus is a sacrifice - "This is my body... which will be given up for you"... "behold the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world", etc. Based on my