Homosexuality and Religion (Jesus Christ, agnostic, LDS, bible, God)

[billabong]

Originally Posted by Bennu

Off the top of my rather-groggy-and-vaguely-ill head, there are a few major points to remember and consider before any attempt to answer this question is made:

1. Firstly, the 'Bible' is a collection of various texts which were written, edited and compiled over centuries by various authors who were not only reacting to different social and cultural pressures, but who held different religious perspectives and who were writing to different audiences. I'd personally be wary of searching for a cogent and consistent position on a social issue such as homosexuality; or at least of searching without taking the above into account. Even today, there is no one set, universal Bible; are we talking about the Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Slavonic or Ethiopian Bible?
2. Many of the instances where homosexuality is traditionally assumed to be mentioned or condemned, in either the OT or NT, are reliant upon later and extra-textual attributions and interpretations. A prominent example of this is the common assumption that the sin of the people of Sodom was homosexuality, whereas in fact the original passage makes no mention of this and other Biblical passages suggest that their sin was actually that of pride and a lack of compassion.
3. The culture that much of the Bible was written within did not share our contemporary understanding of 'homosexuality'. There seems to have been little awareness that a person could genuinely and naturally experience sexual attraction to a member of the same-sex, and so any condemnation which may exist would focus on the act and not the underlying sexuality.
4. 'Religion' does not equate to 'Christianity' or 'the Bible', and vice versa. (Though I dare say you knew that! )

As to your OP, homosexuality and homosexual acts seems to have been discouraged, or at least strictly not-encouraged, by most cultures in many times and places, though by no means by all. As at least in part a reflection of their native culture(s), most religions will and do reflect this in some greater or lesser form. Those that tend to encourage a movement away from the conceptual and dogmatic, such as Eastern religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and etc...) and the various varieties of Neo-Paganism, are generally less affected by this though.

Moreover, within almost every religion there exist both schools of thought which reconcile a devout faith and a homosexual lifestyle, and which denounce it. I highly doubt there is merely one concept of homosexuality for any religion.

The answer is yes the Bible is against homosexuality.

[billabong]

Originally Posted by Bennu

Can you support this with evidence/sources/examples and so forth?

1Co 6:13, 1Co 6:18, 1Co 10:8, Eph 5:3, 1Th 4:3 to name a few.

[billabong]

Originally Posted by Somkid

Thai Buddhists think homosexuality is caused by Karma therefore they except gay people no questions asked.

I bet they do.

[Don Penguinoini]

Hinduism doesent care about sexuality. There is no right or wrong sexuality. Tis all about the content of your character.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by billabong

The answer is yes the Bible is against homosexuality.

It's not quite so simple, IMO.

Parts of the Bible do describe homosexuality as sinful and as forbidden under the Old Law. However, other parts describe the Old Law as no longer applicable to Christians (who have "died with Christ" to the laws of the world), and describe looking at the world in the context of "sin/not sin" as leaving one rooted in death and the flesh.

Originally Posted by billabong

1Co 6:13, 1Co 6:18, 1Co 10:8, Eph 5:3, 1Th 4:3 to name a few.

1 Cor. 6:13 & 18 only mention "sexual immorality". The context only explicitly links this with availing onesself of a prostitute; any concept of homosexuality in there is coming from your own inference, not the text. Also, I notice you leapt right over 1 Cor 6:15:

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.

1 Cor 10:8 talks about engaging in "sexual immorality, as some of them did". The "them" in question is indicated by the previous verse, which alludes to idolatry practiced by the Israelites in Exodus 32. It looks to me like there's no particular reason to assume that the "sexual immorality" in question was homosexuality. In fact, when I look through Exodus 32, it seems more likely that it's describing either orgies or fornication generally.

Eph 5:3 talks only about "sexual immorality" as well. Just like before, it's only inference and not the actual text that leads to the conclusion that this includes homosexuality. Actually, the KJV explicitly does not translate the term as homosexuality: it uses the word "fornication".

And 1 Thes 4:3 also only talks about "sexual immorality". Funny, in the whole list of bible verses that you claimed are against homosexuality, none of them actually mention homosexuality.

[Bennu]

Originally Posted by billabong

The answer is yes the Bible is against homosexuality.

Y'know, going to the trouble (however small it may be) to quote my post only to expressly ignore it's contents seems a little counter-intuitive. Can you offer any reasons for why I should accept your conclusions, or even any detail for why you disagree? As you quoted 'em, how would you deal with the qualifications I raised?

To clarify, I'd say that one could certainly at least argue that homosexuality, or homosexual acts, are occasionally condemned in the Bible (be it through cultural, theological or even divine forces), but that is very different from saying that the Bible itself condemns it. There simply isn't that level of cohesion involved. To say "the Bible itself", seems to rely upon that there was an overarching and definitive, not to mention prescient, attempt on the part of it's various authors to answer contemporary social-ethical issues and/or some form of objective/divine guidance involved, yet I can't see any compelling evidence to support either.

You are, of course, more then welcome to attempt to offer any such evidence.

Originally Posted by billabong

1Co 6:13, 1Co 6:18, 1Co 10:8, Eph 5:3, 1Th 4:3 to name a few.

Firstly, those four books do not constitute the Bible.

Secondly, let's have a looksee at what those passages actually say...

(All translations KJV)

Originally Posted by I Corinthians 6:12-20

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

No mention of homosexuality here; it fact this seems to be quite a good example of qualification-2-in-action I mentioned earlier. Relying upon extra-textual explanations certainly doesn't automatically invalidate an argument like this, but it does make it potentially unreliable and inconclusive.

By the by, I also came across this essay on the translation and understanding of Greek terms and concepts. Can anyone tell me if it sounds any good?

(I'm under the limit, so I can't directly link. Cockypop)

The one thing that really struck me was how it described the difficulty in translating the word 'arsenokoitai', a word that Paul seems to have invented and which may have quite a few different meanings, be it as 'homosexuals' or 'fornicators', 'male prostitues' or 'paedophiles'.

Originally Posted by I Corinthians 10:6-11

6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

No direct mention here.

Originally Posted by Ephesians 5:1-5

1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

I'm starting to notice a pattern...

Originally Posted by 1 Thessalonians 4:1-5

1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. 2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

*coughs*

------

Of course, one can argue over the exacting nature of biblical criticism and scholarship, but it might be fun if you did some of the running now.

[Romulus]

I'm only familiar with Catholic views (which usually consider the act of sexual activity outside of marraige and not the orientation sinful), but this site may be able to help you:

www (dot) gaychristian (dot) net

[nawab]

If Bible is not against Homosexuality, then why was Prophet Lut (Lot) nation destroyed, why was the wrath of God almight released on Sodom & Gomorrah. Which biblical character practiced Homosexuality, By the way as the old saying goes its still Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

If God Almighty wanted to make Homosexuality Legal, at least Jesus would have allowed it, Which he didnt. The best sign is that even Animals of the lower functions dont practice homosexuality, we Humans who are supposed to be the Vice Regents of God on earth are doing these sick acts. God made a man and a woman for a reason, a seed can only be produced by a Male & Female. Can two guys or two girls together get pregnet, i hardly doubt it.

Now the Christians have allowed Homosexuality, later they will allow Prostitution & Beastiality, and later to worship Satan. Because these things were also not forbidden in the bible.

Now back to Islam to be nearer to God you have to get marry with a girl. you cant even stay virgin all your life.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by nawab

The best sign is that even Animals of the lower functions dont practice homosexuality,

wrong. check again pal.