Is Hell a Part of LDS Doctrine ??? (Kingdom, salvation, soul)

[madhatter85]

"Hell" in the typical sense does not exist in LDS doctrine. "Outer Darkness" will be devoid of God's presence and no ministry of angels in that place.

"purgatory" sounds alot like "spirit prison" and paradise where we go after we die to wait for the final judgement. or to be taught the gospel had we not accepted it here. or never had the chance to accept it. hence why we do baptisms for the dead by proxy so that thier ordinaces may bring them out of spirit prison and into paradise.

[tomspug]

This topic reminds me of C.S. Lewis's fiction: The Great Divorce.

It's not to be taken literally, but it's an interesting metaphor for the relationship between heaven and hell. If you ever get a chance, pick it up and see what you think.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by madhatter85

"Hell" in the typical sense does not exist in LDS doctrine.

This is exactly why I started this thread to show that hell does exist in LDS doctrine. It's a real place with real flames which do not consume, because those who go there; 1) Never obtained a physical body (Satan and the 1/3 that followed him in the pre-existence); and 2)Those who will go there temporarily, being temporarily seperated from their physical bodies.

It seems to be a permanent place only for Satan and his angels, for all else it seems like a temporary place...

Originally Posted by Hatter

"purgatory" sounds alot like "spirit prison" and paradise where we go after we die to wait for the final judgement.

Yeah, sounds like it.

Originally Posted by Hat Man

or to be taught the gospel had we not accepted it here. or never had the chance to accept it. hence why we do baptisms for the dead by proxy so that their ordinaces may bring them out of spirit prison and into paradise.

Exactly

[FFH]

Originally Posted by tomspug

This topic reminds me of C.S. Lewis's fiction: The Great Divorce.

It's not to be taken literally, but it's an interesting metaphor for the relationship between heaven and hell. If you ever get a chance, pick it up and see what you think.

So you don't believe in literal flames either.

The flames of hell are real, they just don't consume, those being there being void of their physical bodies so there is nothing to consume.

Whether the flames also have physical properties we don't know. My guess would be they are real but not physical.

Real visible flames but with different ("non physical") properties.

Just as we will obtain more refined physical bodies when we die, I believe the flames are the same, more refined and less dense.

Scriptures tell us all matter is physical, just more refined in the next life, this life being composed of extremely dense physical matter.

Hell must adhere to this same principle, made up of more refined matter.

I've seen a male demon (one of the 1/3 that followed Satan in the pre-existence) and could have run my hand through him, but the image came and went too fast.

The flames of hell would be the same, flames that do not consume (unable to touch, but can/could be felt, for instance, the heat or the torment of the flames and the evilness of hell.

I've felt the torment of the male demon, he possessing a spirit body in it's perfect form, perfect in every way, at least his face, that's all I saw, but yet he was in torment, I definitely felt what he was feeling. It served as an invaluable warning at that particular time in my life 20 years ago. I felt his torment and extreme loneliness for a fraction of a second it was pretty intense..

Not good.

I've also felt the feelings of an exalted being and saw her in her perfect form for a fraction of a second, just over a year ago, and that was equally intense, yet totally opposite.

A wonderful feeling. I felt, for a fraction of a second what it would be like to be exalted with God. It's a complete/whole feeling like nothing is broken or missing, that's the only way I can describe it. Intense pure love not felt in this world by another human being, but only emminates from God.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by FFH

This is exactly why I started this thread to show that hell does exist in LDS doctrine. It's a real place with real flames which do not consume, because those who go there; 1) Never obtained a physical body (Satan and the 1/3 that followed him in the pre-existence); and 2)Those who will go there temporarily, being temporarily seperated from their physical bodies.

It seems to be a permanent place only for Satan and his angels, for all else it seems like a temporary place...

I have to disagree with you on one aspect, It is a perminent place, Cain has a physical body. he is also a son of perdition. he will always have his physical body once he is ressurected. and because of that simple fact, Cain will have more power than satan in "Outer Darkness" or "hell" (which ever way you want to put it).

The place is perminent, Spirit prison is not, because nomatter what, you will leave that place and either be cast out into Hell unless you are brought out of that place and put into Paradise in which you will recieve one of the 3 kingdoms of Glory spoken of by Paul in 1st Corinthians.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Hatter

I have to disagree with you on one aspect, It is a perminent place, Cain has a physical body. he is also a son of perdition. he will always have his physical body once he is ressurected. and because of that simple fact, Cain will have more power than satan in "Outer Darkness" or "hell" (which ever way you want to put it).

Hey, you brought up a point I would like to discuss.

Pretty sure hell and outer darkness are two very different places.

I imagine even the son's of perdition will eventually escape the grips of hell, but will then be cast into outer darkness at the time of the afternoon of the second resurrection.

Hell is an eternal place reserved only for Satan and his angels for eternity, all others will eventually leave that place. This is just how I see it in my mind for some reason. Scriptures seem to support this. Will list some scriptures later which state hell is an eternal place for Satan and his angels, but seems to be more vague about all others who temporarily go there to pay the price for their unrepented sins.

Outer darkness and hell the same ??? I don't think so. We need to do our research and find out.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by FFH

Hey, you brought up a point I would like to discuss.

Pretty sure hell and outer darkness are two very different places.

I imagine even the son's of perdition will eventually escape the grips of hell, but will then be cast into outer darkness at the time of the afternoon of the second resurrection.

Hell is an eternal place reserved only for Satan and his angels for eternity, all others will eventually leave that place. This is just how I see it in my mind for some reason. Scriptures seem to support this. Will list some scriptures later which state hell is an eternal place for Satan and his angels, but seems to be more vague about all others who temporarily go there to pay the price for their unrepented sins.

Outer darkness and hell the same ??? I don't think so. We need to do our research and find out.

I will have to provide you the refrences when i get home, there is an awesome book you should read by Matthew B. Brown called The Plan of Salvation: Understanding our Divine Origin and Destiny, published by Bookcraft, at Deseret Books, it's like 15 bucks.

It describes everything in extreme detail. (refrences include many official LDS documents and talks) from the Origin of God, to the creation, fall, and atonement, to the final judgement and the degrees of Glory.

[Scott C.]

This quote comes from lds.org under frequently asked questions:

"Latter-day scriptures describe at least three senses of hell: (1) that condition of misery which may attend a person in mortality due to disobedience to divine law; (2) the miserable, but temporary, state of disobedient spirits in the spirit world awaiting the resurrection; (3) the permanent habitation of the sons of perdition, who remain in hell even after the resurrection. Persons experiencing the first type of hell can be rescued from suffering through repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In the second type of hell, unrepentant spirits are cleansed in preparation for the Resurrection through suffering that would have been obviated by the Atonement of Christ had they repented in mortality. Latter-day Saint theology also teaches that many have been, and many more will yet be, delivered from this hell through hearing, repenting, and obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ in the spirit world after the death of the body. Finally, the third meaning of "hell" refers to the realm of the devil and his angels, including those known as sons of perdition. Only this hell continues to operate after the resurrection and judgment."

The B. of M. says "wo unto the liar for he shall be thrust down to hell". Since there are many liars who are not sons of perdition, this would have to refer to the spirit world "hell". D&C 19 speaks of the unrepentant having to suffer even as Christ suffered. This is also a reference to the spirit world hell. The Gospel Principles book, in the chapter on the Spirit World, differentiates between two groups of people in Spirit Prison. There are those who led honorable lives who are in prison waiting to be freed. Others suffer in a state of Hell in the spirit world. So, I would say that while everyone in Spirit Prison is "uncomfortable" waiting for their redemption, some of them are truly in a state of "hell" while others are in a more favorable state. Also, to complicate matters, Alma 13 refers to the place where the wicked go after death as "outer darkness". At least in this context, I believe Alma is speaking of the spirit world hell and not necessarily the "outer darkness" we usually think of as being reserved for the sons of perdition. From my point of view, scriptural terminology such as outer darkness and hell can be used in different ways at different times. I definitely believe that the sufferings of the ungodly in spirit prison should be called hell and the scriptures call it that. What I don't know is if the suffering of the sons of perdition, which lasts forever, is any worse that the suffering in hell of those who are eventually redeemed. It stands to reason that the suffering will match the wickedness, according to degree.