The Jesus myth... (Christians, Christ, religions, holidays)

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Kcnorwood

The problem with ANY thing like this is that none of have any realy proof of what went down 4,000 years ago let alone 2,000 years, ...

A mind like a steel trap ...

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by Random

It's final triumph was called Christianity, specifically European Christianity.

I've never seen such a long bow being drawn.

The Judeo-Christian scriptures are clear that their God made the local star. Any mystical offshoot therefore would have to ignore one of the foundation scriptures. See alo Deut 4:19

Chronologically, if anything wouldn't the final 'truimph' be Islam, said to be transplanted on top of the rituals (alms, friday prayers, kissing the black stone, pilgramige of Kabah, ramadam fast, face Meccah to pray etc) of a pre-existing moon-observing religion?

[Random]

Originally Posted by rocketman

I've never seen such a long bow being drawn.

The Judeo-Christian scriptures are clear that their God made the local star. Any mystical offshoot therefore would have to ignore one of the foundation scriptures. See alo Deut 4:19

Chronologically, if anything wouldn't the final 'truimph' be Islam, said to be transplanted on top of the rituals (alms, friday prayers, kissing the black stone, pilgramige of Kabah, ramadam fast, face Meccah to pray etc) of a pre-existing moon-observing religion?

"...long bow drawn". I like that...

However, I'm not sure what you mean here. I date the final stage as the dissolution of the old Hellenic pagan system, the last shread of which died around 500 CE. Islam certainly put a capstone on the process, but the damage was already done. IMHO.

You are certainly right in that in modern times Islam is the most visible and powerful representative of religious patriarchy extant, even though there are many in Rome who would rival and surpass its extremities and, indeed, Rome and Islam are linked in more ways than one...

[rocketman]

Originally Posted by Random

"...long bow drawn". I like that...

However, I'm not sure what you mean here. I date the final stage as the dissolution of the old Hellenic pagan system, the last shread of which died around 500 CE. Islam certainly put a capstone on the process, but the damage was already done. IMHO.

You are certainly right in that in modern times Islam is the most visible and powerful representative of religious patriarchy extant, even though there are many in Rome who would rival and surpass its extremities and, indeed, Rome and Islam are linked in more ways than one...

Fair enough. I guess what I'm saying is that I respectfully disagree with anyone who says that the main Christian thrust is to worship astrological bodies. I thought you were hinting at that.

[Pariah]

My Gods...

What is it with people and the use of Krishna? Krishna is the Hindu incarnation of Vishnu who had similar aspects of the Christ story:

1) The king had a dream that he would be overthrown by a child, so he killed other children to prevent it

2) Philosopher

3) Performed similar miracles - cured the blind, raised the dead.

Other than that, there is little to put the two together. Krishna was not crucified, his father was not a carpenter, and Krishna has no relation to the sun, whatsoever. Vishnu is the personification of an idea (The Preserver), not the Sun.

Not to mention, Krishna Janmashtami (The Celebration of Krishna's Birth) occurs in July/August, not December.

Shoddy scholarship. But it can't be helped when you start with a conclusion and then choose only the evidence that supports it.

[gnostic]

Wasn't Mithra's feast day on Dec 25th?

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Jay

You would be surprised at just how many non-Christians out there lap up silly conspiracy theories and propagate nonsense. I guess it takes all kinds.

This post should have a coke alert attached to it!

The problem with conspiracy theories is that reality always seems to crop up and destroy them!

[Draka]

Oh my goodness, the Christians are getting their panties in a twist here. Let's see if this sorts this out (yet some people will still be all panty bunched I'm sure).

No one is saying that Christians worship the Sun. For goodness sake, that is not what this is really about. What this is about is archetypes. There are certain archetypes within the many varying religions all over the planet and this is simply showing the basis for some of these archetypes through astrology. The story presented through astrology is older than any modern religion and the story keeps manifesting itself through cultures with different faces on it. It has been recreated so many times that many have forgotten where it came from.

The thing with so many religions, christianity included, is that they have taken the stories (whichever retelling they have) and taken it to be literal. There's more than the astrological origin thing too. There are other archetypes passed through religions as well. The hero archetype is one seen in practically all religions.

An odd or difficult birth or beginning, have something in common with common man, perform great feats or miracles, resist temptation of some kind, trials and tribulations, have followers or companions on their "quest", betrayel, a water or "death" crossing (into some underworld or enemy abode), a reappearance (successful in defeating enemy or death) in a different (mainly improved) state, a "homecoming" in that changed state.

The same basic archetypes are seen throughout ALL religions. Storytelling through archetypes weaves the same basic stories from culture to culure...custom made for those people.

The reason it becomes so hard for Christians (and many other religious followers) to accept that their religion is no different in the grand scheme of world religions, is that they are so set in the belief that their story is somehow based in reality and fact and that all others are not. To point out that their religious story is just as myth as anyone else's, that believing in the Jesus myth is no different than believing in the Hercules myth, becomes blasphemous and offensive. If they really had to face the fact that their religion is based on myth and not absolute fact, then their worldview and way of life gets turned completely topsy-turvy and they simply do not know how they could possibly deal with that.

[logician]

Let's not confuse Christians with the facts. Of course the Jesus story is a myth, based upon previous god myths, I've been saying this for a long time. Check out Freke and Gandy's books, for example. Of course, many Christians insist Jesus really existed while the rest did not.

Go figure.

[kmkemp]

Originally Posted by Draka

Oh my goodness, the Christians are getting their panties in a twist here. Let's see if this sorts this out (yet some people will still be all panty bunched I'm sure).

No one is saying that Christians worship the Sun.

Perhaps you should watch the video again. I distinctly remember him saying (paraphrased): "when Christians worship Jesus, they are actually just worshipping the sun".

Originally Posted by Draka

The reason it becomes so hard for Christians (and many other religious followers) to accept that their religion is no different in the grand scheme of world religions, is that they are so set in the belief that their story is somehow based in reality and fact and that all others are not. To point out that their religious story is just as myth as anyone else's, that believing in the Jesus myth is no different than believing in the Hercules myth, becomes blasphemous and offensive. If they really had to face the fact that their religion is based on myth and not absolute fact, then their worldview and way of life gets turned completely topsy-turvy and they simply do not know how they could possibly deal with that.

It would definitely be hard for me if I were to somehow discover that God didn't exist. Luckily, a second-rate scholar throwing together a miriad of half-truths and deception to support his presupposition isn't enough to make me change my mind. Perhaps he would be better served at just presenting the facts and then showing why he believes that points at no deity.