What did Jesus know and when did He know it? (Messiah, gospel) - Page 2

Scott1 · #11 10-28-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

A kind of open question for a slow Sunday night. Did Jesus know he was God? If so, when did he know? If not, what did he know?

Jesus became human at the moment of his conception, but was always divine.... but this was understood (over time through the teaching of the Church councils --- Ephesus/Chalcedon/Constantanople in 553 and 681) in the context that the human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man", and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".

lunamoth · #12 10-28-2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Yes, he did know. I just finished looking up a bunch of scripture.....can I cheat and answer tomorrow Ms. Luna?

Of course Sister Buttercup.

I look forward to it.

MidnightBlue · #13 10-28-2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Ahhh Ha! I feel a debate brewing with my darling friend. Bring it on, baby!

Tomorrow though, Ok?

Okay. You should probably open, anyway, since you're the one making the extraordinary claim that a first-century Jew believed he was God.

lunamoth · #14 10-28-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

I don't believe Jesus was God, so it would be odd if I thought he "knew" it.

I don't believe Jesus thought he was God, either.

What did he know (if you were to accept that somewhere in the Gospels there is a historical Jesus)?

lunamoth · #15 10-28-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

Jesus became human at the moment of his conception, but was always divine.... but this was understood (over time through the teaching of the Church councils --- Ephesus/Chalcedon/Constantanople in 553 and 681) in the context that the human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man", and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".

Thank you for bringing the Catholic perspective to the table Scott.

lunamoth · #16 10-28-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Okay. You should probably open, anyway, since you're the one making the extraordinary claim that a first-century Jew believed he was God.

Wouldn't there have been a difference between him knowing his vocation was Messiah and him knowing that he was God incarnate?

UnityNow101 · #17 10-28-2007, 10:45 PM

I feel another 100-page debate on the divinity of Jesus is brewing here and now..I don't see it anywhere in the Bible where Jesus ever thought that he was God, although there are instances when he seemed to know that he was on a mission from the Almighty. At no time do I believe that he felt that he was the Almighty or claimed equality with the God of the Universe.There is much more biblical evidence supporting the seperation between Father and Son than a complete unity of persons.

lunamoth · #18 10-28-2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

I feel another 100-page debate on the divinity of Jesus is brewing here and now..

I sure hope not.

Quote:

I don't see it anywhere in the Bible where Jesus ever thought that he was God, although there are instances when he seemed to know that he was on a mission from the Almighty. At no time do I believe that he felt that he was the Almighty or claimed equality with the God of the Universe.There is much more biblical evidence supporting the seperation between Father and Son than a complete unity of persons.

Even if Jesus did not know he was God, but perhaps knew he had a Mission, does this preclude him from being God incarnate?

MidnightBlue · #19 10-28-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

What did he know (if you were to accept that somewhere in the Gospels there is a historical Jesus)?

I accept that there is a historical Jesus somewhere in the Gospels, but I think it's hard to tell in great detail what he thought. It seems he saw his mission as being only to the Jews, though. For instance, calling the sick daughter of the Syro-Phoenician woman a "dog" would have been really extraordinary for someone who believed he had a mission of universal significance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Wouldn't there have been a difference between him knowing his vocation was Messiah and him knowing that he was God incarnate?

I certainly think so. Even if Jesus believed he was the Messiah, it wouldn't necessarily follow that he believed he was God.

lunamoth · #20 10-28-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristineES

That I am not sure of. He did not begin His ministry until He was 30, so maybe not.

Do you think he thought of himself as divine (God incarnate) at any point in his life?

(BTW, I think it is OK scholarly convention to not capitalize the 'h' in 'he' when writing about Jesus...I'm doing it to remain neautral in this thread...not to be disrespectful. I often interchange capital and lowercase He and he. Just thought I should explain that.)