The Garden and the Kingdom (Eden, hell, God, heaven)

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The KOG is here right now. We aspire to the world getting closer and closer to the manifestation of the KOG on earth, but it is not really something we build. More like something that we reveal.

Well, this is where my Christian history comes into play because I don't view the here and now as the KOG. I view the here and now as a largely distant from God (if there is such a being)state of being with glimpses of God all around. So, you'll have to excuse my fledgling clumsy attempts of flying away from the literal fallen 'tree of knowledge'.

I think that reaching the KOG has more to do with the way we look at things, and how our actions follow from that, rather than something that we reach or achieve. I don't equate the KOG with mystical epxerience in which we feel our self fall away and experience unity with the great Unknown.

If there is a God and the earth is our classroom, certainly we are in surrounded by some form of learning center. If that's the context from which I view God and the conflicts of earthly living, I can discern there are negative aspects He/She/It/They want us to rise above. Selfishness=bad therefore I assume God expects part of our learning curve to smash down that particular characteristic. The list of human frailties goes on .....the ultimate pinnacle to strive for is the lofty pedestal of perfect love.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Well, unity of identity is different than utter unity. There is no 'meaning' in utter unity.

Perhaps this is what Eckhart was getting at when he wrote "Only the hand that erases can write the true thing."

Originally Posted by lunamoth

If by unity with God (and each other) you mean I see myself as you and you as myself (the Father and I are one), I see love and the KOG.

But shifting perspective and becoming that other is the process of love, right? This is why the first step in love is listening (to paraphrase Tillich).

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

But, I'm not sure the KOG is the birds not seeing themselves in the mirror.

There'd be no birds to even look.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Well, this is where my Christian history comes into play because I don't view the here and now as the KOG. I view the here and now as a largely distant from God (if there is such a being)state of being with glimpses of God all around. So, you'll have to excuse my fledgling clumsy attempts of flying away from the literal fallen 'tree of knowledge'.

I was not being critical of your post BC, apologies if it came off that way. I sometimes grow weary of saying IMO and the way I see it, although those qualifiers always apply.

That is interesting that you see God as being very distant while I see God as very close. I agree though that we typically only see glimmers of God with the veil totally gone.

If there is a God and the earth is our classroom, certainly we are in surrounded by some form of learning center. If that's the context from which I view God and the conflicts of earthly living, I can discern there are negative aspects He/She/It/They want us to rise above. Selfishness=bad therefore I assume God expects part of our learning curve to smash down that particular characteristic. The list of human frailties goes on .....the ultimate pinnacle to strive for is the lofty pedestal of perfect love.

I used to think of this life as school and the earth as classroom and the whole point of the exercise as to advance. That is a very very Baha'i take on life. I no longer see it that way. Life is here for us to live, experience, enjoy. Our 'higher calling' is love, which transcends morality and judgement and even the accumulation of virtues. I can't tell you how the Baha'i worldview on the development of virtues weighed on me. The Baha'is have no concept of a firey hell, but once you start to feel the burden of virtue it's just as hard as hell.

Great posts by the way...thank you!

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Perhaps this is what Eckhart was getting at when he wrote "Only the hand that erases can write the true thing."



But shifting perspective and becoming that other is the process of love, right? This is why the first step in love is listening (to paraphrase Tillich).

Yes and yes (and yes). It's easier for me to grasp, though, as the Yin and Yang.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

There'd be no birds to even look.

Aaarrrrgh! Brendan! Do you equate the KOG with the Valley of True Poverty and Absolute Nothingness?

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Are the Garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God the same 'states?'

I think so. Despite they are usually described differently, I think they indicate the same psychological truth: Atonement or at-one-ment with deity or some greater reality.