The Garden and the Kingdom (Eden, hell, God, heaven)

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Buttercup! Stop worrying about hell! But to answer your question, I'm not thinking about the afterlife. I think this life and the afterlife are a continuum. To me the Garden and KOG represent states of being now.

Ah, ok...just wanted to clarify where you were going. And, I'm not worried about hell in the slightest anymore. The view is lovely from here.

I'm hoping to hear your definition.

The "Kingdom of God" is evolving at light speed for me these days so my definition is in flux. However, it's obvious we don't live with God in the literal sense so the if the Garden of and the Kingdom represent two states of being now.....these two places are not the same, unless you mean after the Fall. Sorry, I'm late to the discussion. You've probably already debated that point.

The Christian take on this is that animals killing each other came about as part of the Fall.

Hmmm. That part I'm not sure I agree with....but, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Ah, ok...just wanted to clarify where you were going. And, I'm not worried about hell in the slightest anymore. The view is lovely from here.

Good. I was just kind of teasing you.

The "Kingdom of God" is evolving at light speed for me these days so my definition is in flux. However, it's obvious we don't live with God in the literal sense

I'm not so sure.

so the if the Garden of and the Kingdom represent two states of being now.....these two places are not the same, unless you mean after the Fall. Sorry, I'm late to the discussion. You've probably already debated that point.

When I started the discussion I was interested in hearing different ideas about the Garden and the KOG, not looking for any one answer. Dopp and J. Campbell think that both are the same state, and I have as well. But lately I've been thinking that the KOG represents something different than the Garden. The Garden, Heaven, the KOG, New Jerusalem, the City of God. These are all places where there is no veil of sin (fear and desire) between humanity and God. These places are states of being where we are reconciled with God and each other. That's my take on it anyway.

But, I can now also see the KOG as a state different from that of the Garden. As I said, the Garden is a state of primordial innocence, where we do not know good and evil. But the human condition is that we do know good and evil, and are alientated from each other and God by desire and fear. I don't see that as a genie that can go back in the bottle.

The KOG, the City of God, on the other hand, might be a new state of being where we retain the power (and responsibility) of autonomy, yet we choose God's will which leads to peace and joy. The KOG includes the ideas of justice (I know Dopp, I know, but it is the justice in which the first are last, and the last first, and the king serves; the justice that flows out of love) and community. The KOG is what is hoped for, while the way to the Garden is blocked.

These are just my musings Buttercup, not meant to be theology for anyone but myself and even for myself not for all time. I find it interesting to talk about it.

Hmmm. That part I'm not sure I agree with....but, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

I'm not sure about it either. I'm not sure that it's irrelevant though.

I don't see the Fall as something that happened in history but something that describes the human condition now.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The KOG, the City of God, on the other hand, might be a new state of being where we retain the power (and responsibility) of autonomy, yet we choose God's will which leads to peace and joy. The KOG includes the ideas of justice (I know Dopp, I know, but it is the justice in which the first are last, and the last first, and the king serves; the justice that flows out of love) and community. The KOG is what is hoped for, while the way to the Garden is blocked.

So you think of the Kingdom of God as an incomplete substitute for unity with God?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

So you think of the Kingdom of God as an incomplete substitute for unity with God?

If unity with God is the complete obliteration of self, then yes. In the KOG love is possible. In unity with God love is no longer meaningful.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

If unity with God is the complete obliteration of self, then yes. In the KOG love is possible. In unity with God love is no longer meaningful.

Isn't love only meaningful when there's unity of identity?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Isn't love only meaningful when there's unity of identity?

Well, unity of identity is different than utter unity. There is no 'meaning' in utter unity.

If by unity with God (and each other) you mean I see myself as you and you as myself (the Father and I are one), I see love and the KOG.

But, I'm not sure the KOG is the birds not seeing themselves in the mirror.

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I'm not so sure.

In the Garden, Adam and Eve spoke audibly with God....they could hear him distinctly. They hid from God after eating from the tree of knowledge. Now, you could interpret that story as metaphorical but some see it as literal so we have a conundrum.

Either way, it's my thought we cannot go back to the Garden....not while in our present state as humans.

But lately I've been thinking that the KOG represents something different than the Garden. The Garden, Heaven, the KOG, New Jerusalem, the City of God. These are all places where there is no veil of sin (fear and desire) between humanity and God. These places are states of being where we are reconciled with God and each other. That's my take on it anyway.

I agree with you. The KOG is a transcended state, we've released all earthly weights that held down the perfection of human kind.

The KOG, the City of God, on the other hand, might be a new state of being where we retain the power (and responsibility) of autonomy, yet we choose God's will which leads to peace and joy. The KOG includes the ideas of justice (I know Dopp, I know, but it is the justice in which the first are last, and the last first, and the king serves; the justice that flows out of love) and community. The KOG is what is hoped for, while the way to the Garden is blocked.

Yes. But, while in the fallen garden of the present, we are to aspire our behavior toward the KOG of the future. Can we reach the KOG in the here and now? If so, how do we know?