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  #11  
Old 10-23-2007, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by lunamoth View Post

I like Quagmire's idea that our mind is the whirling twirling blade (he he, the philospher's knives), that keep us from reentering. We are now faced with conscious choice to Love and 'judge not.' Isn't this different from the Garden?
No. Whether the "Garden" or the "Kingdom" both are experienced after the fact and looking in from the outside, the fear of uncertainty acting to guard entry into either the Kingdom of Love or the Garden of Harmony. "Primordial innocence" is the construct of the "not primordially innocent." Joseph Campbell explained it well in his interviews with Bill Moyers:
Quote:
Now, when you approach a Buddhist shrine, with the Buddha seated under the tree of immortal life, you will find at the gate two guardians— those are the cherubim, and you're going between them to the tree of immortal life. In the Christian tradition, Jesus on the cross is on a tree, the tree of immortal life, and he is the fruit of the tree. Jesus on the cross, the Buddha under the tree— these are the same figures. And the cherubim at the gate—who are they? At the Buddhist shrines you'll see one has his mouth open, the other has his mouth closed—fear and desire, a pair of opposites. If you're approaching a garden like that, and those two figures there are real to you and threaten you, if you have fear for your life, you are still outside the garden. But if you are no longer attached to your ego existence, but see the ego existence as a function of a larger, eternal totality, and you favor the larger against the smaller, then you won't be afraid of those two figures, and you will go through. We're kept out of the Garden by our own fear and desire in relation to what we think to be the goods of our life.
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  #12  
Old 10-23-2007, 08:43 AM
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Well, the dawning of fear and desire certainly are the hallmarks of the Fall.

Are humans capable of perfectly eradicating fear and desire from their thinking?
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  #13  
Old 10-23-2007, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by lunamoth View Post
Well, the dawning of fear and desire certainly are the hallmarks of the Fall.

Are humans capable of perfectly eradicating fear and desire from their thinking?
No. Fear and desire are the completion of self awareness. This is why the 30 birds can't experience what they seek and why the man at the door of the law can't enter a door constructed just for him.
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  #14  
Old 10-23-2007, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by doppelgänger View Post
No. Fear and desire are the completion of self awareness. This is why the 30 birds can't experience what they seek and why the man at the door of the law can't enter a door constructed just for him.
It's so tragic. The response is compassion, no?
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  #15  
Old 10-23-2007, 09:09 AM
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No. Fear and desire are the completion of self awareness. This is why the 30 birds can't experience what they seek and why the man at the door of the law can't enter a door constructed just for him.
Can you explain this a bit more clearly? It's meaning is lost on me today!
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  #16  
Old 10-23-2007, 09:21 AM
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Can you explain this a bit more clearly? It's meaning is lost on me today!
Sure. I am separated from God by my fear (fear of death, fear of my individual insignificance). These fears and corresponding desires (reproduction, food, pleasure, meaning) are part of the isolation and cosmic alienation of feeling and experiencing myself as a being separate and apart from all that I experience. To lose all fear and desire is to no longer be me and to become one again with God. I can't achieve this by wanting it. And I can't experience it while still being me.

The two references are to a pair of parables. The first is the Sufi parable "The Conference of the Birds" in which a troupe of 30 birds journey together through seven valleys of growth experiences on their way to find the ultimate meaning. When they finally get to the place where the ultimate meaning (the "Simurg") is to be found - the Royal Court of the Simurg - the gates are barred to them:

Quote:
At last the Honourable Usher of the Royal Court came out of the palace. He saw the birds standing before him without a feather or a hair, utterly travel-stained, crippled and stupefied.

“Who are ye?” he asked. “Where do you come from, and what brings you here? What is the name of your tribe and of what use are you, a handful of bones, to the world?”
“We have come here,” said the tiny beings, “because we are anxious to be admitted to the presence of the Simurg and to do Him homage as our king. It is a long, long time since we started on this journey, and only thirty of us have survived out of millions. We have come all the way full of hope that we shall be admitted to the Royal Presence.”

The Chamberlain replied: “Whether you exist or do not exist is immaterial to the Sovereign of Eternity. Millions of worlds filled with myriads of creatures are like an ant at the door of the King. What, then, will your place be before Him? Better return, O handful of paupers!”

The unfortunate pilgrims were so disappointed at this reply that they nearly died. They began to weep and lament and said, “If we have not permission to reach the Court of the Simurg, we have no desire to retrace our steps. Will the great King reject us with contempt upon this road? Can such an insult proceed from Him, and if it does, will it not turn into honour?”

So fervent was their grief, so heart-broken their lamentation that they were admitted to the presence of the Sovereign. But, first of all, a register was placed before them, in which every detail of the deeds that each one of them had done, or had omitted to do, from the beginning to the end, was carefully entered. Seeing this list of transgressions, they were annihilated and sank down in confusion, and their bodies were reduced to dust. After they had been thus completely purged and purified from all earthly elements, their souls were resuscitated by the light of His Majesty. They stood up again, dazed and distracted. In this new life the recollection of their transgressions was completely effaced from their mind. This was baqā after fanā, immortality after perishability, life after life’s loss, eternal existence after extinction.
Now the Sun celestial began to shine forth in front of them, and lo! how great was their surprise! In the reflection of their faces these thirty birds of the earth beheld the face of the Celestial Simurg. When they cast furtive glances towards the Simurg, they perceived that the Simurg was no other than those self-same thirty birds. In utter bewilderment they lost their wits and wondered whether they were their own selves or whether they had been transformed into the Simurg. Then, to themselves they turned their eyes, and wonder of wonders, those self-same birds seemed to be one Simurg! Again, when they gazed at both in a single glance, they were convinced that they and the Simurg formed in reality only one Being. This single Being was the Simurg and the Simurg this Being. That one was this and this one was that. Look where they would, in whatever direction, it was only the Simurg they saw. No one has heard of such a story in the world.

Drowned in perplexity, they began to think of this mystery without the faculty of thinking, but finding no solution to the riddle, they besought the Simurg, though no words passed their lips, to explain this mystery and to solve this enigma of I and Thou. The Simurg thereupon deigned to vouchsafe this reply to them: “The Sun of my Majesty is a mirror. Whoever beholds himself in this mirror, sees there his soul and his body, sees himself entire in it. Soul and body see soul and body. Since you, thirty birds, have come here, you find thirty birds in the mirror.
Is is only when they cease to be thirty birds that they are one with the Simurg and then there are no thirty birds to experience it.

The second reference is to Franz Kafka's parable "Before the Law":

Quote:
BEFORE THE LAW stands a doorkeeper. To this doorkeeper there comes a man from the country and prays for admittance to the Law. But the doorkeeper says that he cannot grant admittance at the moment. The man thinks it over and then asks if he will be allowed in later. "It is possible," says the doorkeeper, "but not at the moment." Since the gate stands open, as usual, and the doorkeeper steps to one side, the man stoops to peer through the gateway into the interior. Observing that, the doorkeeper laughs and says: "If you are so drawn to it, just try to go in despite my veto. But take note: I am powerful. And I am only the least of the door-keepers. From hall to hall there is one doorkeeper after another, each more powerful than the last. The third doorkeeper is already so terrible that even I cannot bear to look at him." These are difficulties the man from the country has not expected; the Law, he thinks, should surely be accessible at all times and to everyone, but as he now takes a closer look at the doorkeeper in his fur coat, with his big sharp nose and long, thin, black Tar-tar beard, he decides that it is better to wait until he gets permission to enter.

The doorkeeper gives him a stool and lets him sit down at one side of the door. There he sits for days and years. He makes many attempts to be admitted, and wearies the doorkeeper by his importunity. The doorkeeper frequently has little interviews with him, asking him questions about his home and many other things, but the questions are put indifferently, as great lords put them, and always finish with the statement that he cannot be let in yet. The man, who has furnished himself with many things for his journey, sacrifices all he has, however valuable, to bribe the doorkeeper. The doorkeeper accepts everything, but always with the remark: "I am only taking it to keep you from thinking you have omitted anything." During these many years the man fixes his attention almost continuously on the doorkeeper. He forgets the other doorkeepers, and this first one seems to him the sole obstacle preventing access to the Law. He curses his bad luck, in his early years boldly and loudly, later, as he grows old, he only grumbles to himself. He becomes childish, and since in his yearlong contemplation of the doorkeeper he has come to know even the fleas in his fur collar, he begs the fleas as well to help him and to change the doorkeeper's mind. At length his eyesight begins to fail, and he does not know whether the world is really darker or whether his eyes are only deceiving him. Yet in his darkness he is now aware of a radiance that streams inextinguishably from the gateway of the Law.

Now he has not very long to live. Before he dies, all his experiences in these long years gather themselves in his head to one point, a question he has not yet asked the doorkeeper. He waves him nearer, since he can no longer raise his stiffening body. The doorkeeper has to bend low towards him, for the difference in height between them has altered much to the man's disadvantage.

"What do you want to know now?" asks the doorkeeper; "you are insatiable!"

"Everyone strives to reach the Law," says the man, "so how does it happen that for all these many years no one but myself has ever begged for admittance?"

The doorkeeper recognizes that the man has reached his end, and to let his failing senses catch the words roars in his ear: "No one else could ever be admitted here, since this gate was made only for you. I am now going to shut it."
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  #17  
Old 10-23-2007, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by lunamoth View Post
Are humans capable of perfectly eradicating fear and desire from their thinking?
Then they wouldn't be human.
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  #18  
Old 10-23-2007, 09:43 AM
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A late night question.

Are the Garden of Eden and the Kingdom of God the same 'states?'

Can we really get back to the Garden? Do we want to?
Are you asking the question in the context of where we go after we die according to Christianity? Is that the basic definition you'd like to use regarding, "Kingdom of God"?

If so, I always took the Kingdom of God to have no occurrences of animals killing each other.....that wasn't the case in the Garden of Eden was it?
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