Is god all-knowing? (creation, experience, scriptures, worship, point of view) - Page 7

LogDog · #61 10-25-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

You want physical evidence to point you to a belief in spiritual truths.

YES PLEASE. It's not like I'm asking god to do for me anything that he hasn't supposedly done for people in the past. Consider the following:

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. (KJV)

"When they saw the miracles which he did," not "when they heard the words that he spoke."

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. (KJV)

"For no man can do these miracles that thou doest," not "for no man can speak the words that thou speakest."

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. (KJV)

"Because they saw his miracles," not just "because they heard his words."

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

Those people would not believe based solely upon jesus' words. They wanted to see some miracles firsthand, and the texts say that they got what they wanted.

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.(NIV)

The message of his grace was confirmed with miracles, not with words.

If jesus rose from the dead, if he had never left the earth, and had continued to perform miracles, had demonstrated that intelligent design exists, and had never aged, there is no doubt that today, a much higher percentage of people would believe that he exists.

I thought that one of the things god is trying to accomplish is to help people go to heaven and not to hell. 2 Peter 3:9 basically says that god is not willing that any should perish. That indicates that it is god's desire that people go to heaven and not to hell. How can god best accomplish his desire that people go to heaven and not to hell? If a god exists, there is no doubt whatsoever that he could easily increase the number of people who believe that he exists.

Why does god discriminate? Why does he withold evidence from some who would otherwise accept his actuality if only they were presented with the same kind of evidence he presented to people in the past. Requiring faith is counterproductive if you want people to know that you exist. Common sense says that if you are a god, or anyone else, and you want to convince people to accept you, refusing to tangibly appear to everyone who you want to convince greatly limits the number of people who will accept you. Faith alone is not enough. If the god of the bible exists, meaning the god who is mentioned in Genesis 1:1, it is obvious that he wants to limit the number of people who believe in him. And since god wishes to limit the number of people who believe in him, he should not criticize people who don't.

Scuba Pete · #62 10-25-2007, 06:12 AM

O' Doubting Logdog... there is no blessing in having to see to believe.

John 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." NIV

I Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. NIV

Love is the REAL miracle.

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

Jayhawker Soule · #63 10-25-2007, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

O' Doubting Logdog... there is no blessing in having to see to believe.

John 20:24 Now Thomas ... NIV

Then again, there is no reason in believing because of something written in John 20 ...

Scuba Pete · #64 10-25-2007, 06:38 AM

There might be no reason in those scriptures for YOU to believe, but perhaps it is sufficient for another. If nothing else, this discussion has caused Logdog to research the scriptures and that's enough for me for now. Quite often people come to the scriptures as skeptics and yet somehow find faith in spite of themselves. God moves in a mysterious way, his wonders to perform.

And no, I don't come here to convert others.

LogDog · #65 10-25-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

There might be no reason in those scriptures for YOU to believe, but perhaps it is sufficient for another. If nothing else, this discussion has caused Logdog to research the scriptures and that's enough for me for now. Quite often people come to the scriptures as skeptics and yet somehow find faith in spite of themselves. God moves in a mysterious way, his wonders to perform.

And no, I don't come here to convert others.

No moral, rational god would ever inspire a confusing book like the bible, and no moral, rational god would ever withhold useful evidence from a book that he inspired.

There's good evidence that a person's belief system is completely dependent upon chance and circumstance. It's my position that a loving god would not allow a person's belief system to depend completely upon chance and circumstance, or even partially.

If the bible said that god will send everyone to hell, you would not defend the bible, even though you now defend it. That's because of your emotional self-interest. It's not the evidence that interests you, but what the evidence promises. If the bible said that god will send everyone to hell, you would be using some of the same arguments that skeptics use.

If I had the power of a god, I most certainly would not withhold useful evidence from people, and I most certainly would not refuse to show up in person to have discussions with them. Since it has always been helpful for wise rulers to have personal discussions with their subjects, it is reasonable to conclude that it would be helpful for a god to have personal discussions with human beings.

People who commit crimes have 100% proof that that they'll be sent to jail or prison if they're caught. On the other hand, there is not any credible evidence that any human being has ever seen heaven and hell. I don't believe it's fair and reasonable for god to say that he'll send people to heaven and hell and refuse to provided 100% proof that heaven and hell exist, especially if some people will be sent to hell for eternity without parole, or if you wish, denied access to heaven for eternity without having a second chance to have access to heaven.

Requiring faith is definitely counterproductive if your goal is to convince as many people as possible to believe that you exist. In addition, god's refusal to do more goods works, tangibly, in person, limits the size of the christian church. God, if he exists doesn't have to scare people in order to get them to love him.

sojourner · #66 10-25-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

If jesus rose from the dead, if he had never left the earth, and had continued to perform miracles, had demonstrated that intelligent design exists, and had never aged, there is no doubt that today, a much higher percentage of people would believe that he exists.

I disagree. Jesus could have recanted the statements that he made and hung around longer. But that would have devalued the message that some found so horrifying as to design his crucifixion. It is precisely because he was willing to be sacrificed for his teaching that it is regarded as truth and not the crazy uttering of a fool. I think Jesus would have become far less popular had he "spouted the party line" just to stay alive.

Scuba Pete · #67 10-25-2007, 12:33 PM

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