Do You Know Why You Don't Believe? (beliefs, experience, atheist)

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Where's my evidence? Nope, not till you show me yours, and I hope it's more than a picture this time.

It's a heck of a lot more than you have. btw, I've visited the Eiffel tower, so you can add my eye-witness testimony to the pictorial evidence. Do you have any? Of God, that is, not of children playing.

Maybe you should learn something about the universe, like maybe, how particles invent physical laws. Yeah, go figure that one out.

They do? Sez who?

[methylatedghosts]

I believe in God.

It is I

[Papersock]

This is pretty much how this conversation has developed.

SU: Do you know why you don't believe in god?
Atheists: Yes, because there's no evidence.
SU: Yes there is.
A: There is? What is it?
SU: Life, the universe, Everything.
A: That's not evidence.
SU: Yes it is.
A: No it's not.
SU: Yes, it is
Etc...

[Super Universe]

SU: Do you know why you don't believe in God?
A: Yes, a lack of evidence.
SU: But you don't require much evidence to believe in other things?
A: No, but they are different.
SU: Why are they different?
A: Because they don't cost me anything to believe in them
SU: Cost? What cost are you talking about?
A: Individuality for one, what you call "ego".
SU: So both YOU and God can't fit in your universe?
A: That's pretty much it.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

[quote=Autodidact;984371]He didn't say, "and the baby." Obviously, from all the ones that don't die. Duh.[/size]
Actually, I did. Lots of babies died in or just after childbirth. Lots survived as well. The people who exist now are descended from the ones who didn't die, obviously.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Hmm, a good chance of killing the woman? Hardly. How does any population survive and grow to 6 billion when there's a good chance that both the baby and mother die?

Until the middle of the Victorian era, even in the western world, childbirth was the leading cause of death for women. This doesn't mean that every woman died in childbirth; as you pointed out, the human population survived and grew through all of history. However, it does mean that for any individual woman, going through pregnancy had a significant chance of killing her, even if most women survived at least one childbirth.

But please... read some history on the subject, for instance, this article:

Pregnancy and childbirth became the most dangerous time in the life of a Victorian woman. Maternal mortality, the deaths of women during pregnancy, labor, or post-partem, found itself as the main cause of death among women during the nineteenth century (Kiple 214).

A baby's skull at birth is usually only just large enough to pass through a woman's pelvis. If that relationship is just a bit off - if the pelvis is a bit too narrow or the head a bit too big - the baby can't be born and, if left unaided, the mother and baby will both die in childbirth.

Even with a successful birth, historically, there were many ailments that could befall either a new mother or her baby.

Now... if childbirth were "perfect" as you claim, why would a Caesarian section ever be needed?

Originally Posted by Super Universe

God does exist.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

People don't see the evidence for God for a number of reasons but their ego's are the main thing interfering. I cannot justifying something when absolute evidence of that thing is provided and people still refuse to accept it.

You provided absolute evidence? I must've missed it.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

My purpose was not to sway anyone. I just wanted to ask, "Do you know why you don't believe?" Nobody's mind is going to change regardless of the logic or evidence provided. That's the whole point of this exercise. Stop being so afraid and relax, I'm not going to make you into a Catholic.

Don't worry; there's not much danger of that.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

It's readily apparent. Why don't you know this?

Maybe we're stupid. I can't think of any other possible explanation for why baseless assertions and statements of opinion wouldn't get in through my thick skull at least.

I guess you'll have to break your argument down so we can understand it. Do it step by step so even the dullards like me can follow it.

[Papersock]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

A: Because they don't cost me anything to believe in them

I thought that was your claim, not the atheists'.

A: Individuality for one, what you call "ego".

And this too was your assertion.
At least with my over-generalization of the conversation I attributed the sentiments to the right people.

[Super Universe]

[quote=9-10ths_Penguin;984566]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

He didn't say, "and the baby." Obviously, from all the ones that don't die. Duh.[/size]
Actually, I did. Lots of babies died in or just after childbirth. Lots survived as well. The people who exist now are descended from the ones who didn't die, obviously.

[/size]

Until the middle of the Victorian era, even in the western world, childbirth was the leading cause of death for women. This doesn't mean that every woman died in childbirth; as you pointed out, the human population survived and grew through all of history. However, it does mean that for any individual woman, going through pregnancy had a significant chance of killing her, even if most women survived at least one childbirth.

But please... read some history on the subject, for instance, this article:



A baby's skull at birth is usually only just large enough to pass through a woman's pelvis. If that relationship is just a bit off - if the pelvis is a bit too narrow or the head a bit too big - the baby can't be born and, if left unaided, the mother and baby will both die in childbirth.

Even with a successful birth, historically, there were many ailments that could befall either a new mother or her baby.

Now... if childbirth were "perfect" as you claim, why would a Caesarian section ever be needed?


You provided absolute evidence? I must've missed it.


Don't worry; there's not much danger of that.


Maybe we're stupid. I can't think of any other possible explanation for why baseless assertions and statements of opinion wouldn't get in through my thick skull at least.

I guess you'll have to break your argument down so we can understand it. Do it step by step so even the dullards like me can follow it.

Lots of babies die? But what human has ever lived forever? Why do you believe that a person was supposed to live longer than they did?

You really go to great lengths to try and prove to me that humans should be the main emphasis of God and the entire universe. It should be quite obvious to you by now that you aren't. It's just not about you.

Not just childbirth, but birth in general is perfect. Can you give life to something?

Yeah, you missed it, an entire universe full of evidence.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Lots of babies die? But what human has ever lived forever? Why do you believe that a person was supposed to live longer than they did?

I don't. I don't believe in fate of any kind, so I don't believe that anyone is "supposed" to live for any particular length of time at all.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

You really go to great lengths to try and prove to me that humans should be the main emphasis of God and the entire universe. It should be quite obvious to you by now that you aren't. It's just not about you.

If that's what you got out of what I wrote, then you mis-read it.

You brought up the "perfection" of childbirth as evidence for God. As I pointed out, childbirth is not "perfect" in any sense of the term. Bring up some other point and we can talk about that, but don't get pissy about the fact that I challenge you on stuff that you bring up.

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Not just childbirth, but birth in general is perfect. Can you give life to something?

Depends on your sense of the terms involved. Birth's pretty neat, but as I've stated, it's not perfect.

Yeah, you missed it, an entire universe full of evidence.

Then enlighten us. Don't just talk about how there's lots of evidence, give some examples. In "an entire universe of evidence", you should have no shortage.