Do You Know Why You Don't Believe? (beliefs, experience, atheist)

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by s2a

Hiya SuperUniverse,

You said:
Now, ya see, that's an interesting claim that quite a few believers attest as a knowable "truth". Of the first part, I would agree that "This universe is a free will place...", but as to divine bestowments of charitable gifts (in this particular case, our species' innate capacities to think and reason)...I do not ask that you provide any "proofs" of this extraordinary claim...I only ask that you reference or source the foundation of that assertive claim. Is there a record of this "transaction" between man and "god"? Is there some sort of written text that attests to (or documents) this foundational truth? I do not ask that you prove your "god" exists, I only ask why you believe that your "god" has "gifted" mankind with free will? What do you cite as validation (or foundation) of that belief? Some accessible text, book, or anecdotal story? From whom, or from what insightful instrument were you instructed/revealed in accepting this "truth" to your subsequently unquestioning understanding? Does it have a title, a Dewey decimal classification, a website, or any named place/archive that skeptics and/or other wayward souls might hope to visit or read from for themselves? Or do you claim some unique and utterly inaccessible and personalized revelation of "god's truth" (like some especially "gifted" and extraordinary enlightenment that is your alone to "know" and fully appreciate)?

So much then for concepts of free will...

I'm reminded by the observation of one Mr. Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain), who said:
"Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will."
-- "Consistency" speech, essay

Interesting. I wonder if you might share then your own perceived distinctions between the concepts of "free inquiry", and "free will"? Is reasonable doubt a "choice", in and of itself; or is it an inexact inference that leaves free inquiry added room to explore and pursue avenues of ongoing discovery and "revelation"? What sort of divinely bestowed "free will" can be claimed as "absolute"...if any realization that "god might not exist" is to be deemed as categorically false, and beyond all human capacities of free inquiry or reasoned conclusion?

Oh churlish SuperUniverse...I wish to elevate matters of discourse for the benefit of all...not to the confined and "absolute" perspectives of the few...

You remain unmindful, or purposefully deflecting in even offering such a rhetorical inquiry.
I indulged you with a most considered reply that readily surpassed a simple "yes" or "no" answer waaay back here in post #733, within this thread.

Within that very post, I said then:
"It's reason that allows/permits disbelief of any specified claim. Any/all "gods" exist if there is but one claimant that insists that their alleged god(s) are "real". Do you "believe in" Zeus, Apollo, or Athena? Perhaps you "believe in" the claimed divinity of Demeter,Bhrama, Anuke or Baal? Maybe Enki, Ninhursag, or Ki, instead?

No?

What then is the reason you don't believe in those gods?

What reason do you employ that allows you to conclusively doubt insistent claims of fairies, or flying unicorns (or spaghetti monsters traveling aloft in the sky)?"

...and...

"The "reason" I don't believe in your god is because I doubt the legitimacy (or earnestly-lent "testimony") of the claim of it's/His existence. There is more "evidence" supporting a faith-based assertion/claim of Thor as a "god"...than other contemporary faith-based claims of either singular or multiple existent "gods". I can see lightning; I can hear thunder. Should I doubt the correlations of such cause/effect "explanations", or should I simply proclaim and insist that "Thor LIVES"?"

Ya see?

No evident fear on my part in that specific reply...nor in any that have followed.

If I were fearful of your claimed "truths", I would have retired from this thread long ago.

I remain...of my own free will. ;-)

Uh, under my religion it says Urantian/Wingmaker. Hello...

Every name given to the Prime Creator is correct for that individual or group of people. There have been many names given to God and in the coming millenia there may be many more. This is because God is not simple. I know that angers you, you want to know now, you feel you have a right to know but you can only teach so much to an ant. You have to wait for it to evolve higher sentience before you can introduce more advanced concepts. If you really want to know then stop being an ant.

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

I agree. My point remains that proof does not alter the degree of freedom of will, contrary to your assertion.

It does if you wish to have the right to deny God and do bad things.

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

It does if you wish to have the right to deny God and do bad things.

Are you saying I couldn't deny God and do bad things if I had absolute proof that he existed?

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

It does if you wish to have the right to deny God and do bad things.

Not in the least. People believe in the police and still commit crimes. In many myths, the arch anti-god (e.g., Satan) has proof and rebels anyway. Proof does not impact the freedom of will to act.

[crystalonyx]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

It does if you wish to have the right to deny God and do bad things.

What does denying god have to do with doing bad things?

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Not in the least. People believe in the police and still commit crimes. In many myths, the arch anti-god (e.g., Satan) has proof and rebels anyway. Proof does not impact the freedom of will to act.

Police don't always get the bad guy.

As an angel, Lucifer had an advanced understanding of how the universe works but he did not know God. Angels don't come from heaven, they are a tool of highly evolved universal beings, ascended beings.

At the higher levels of universal intelligence God is unanimously accepted as the Prime Creator and source of everything that exists. Still anyone with free will can deny any thing regardless of the supporting evidence especially when you know that God will not interfere. There are other reasons why Lucifer rebelled but they are off topic.

Think of a young child in school, how would they act if their father was the teacher's assistant each day in the classroom?

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Super Universe

Think of a young child in school, how would they act if their father was the teacher's assistant each day in the classroom?

It is likely the child would choose to alter behavior. This does not mean the child's freedom of will is restricted. The degree of freedom was not impacted, though the choices may have differed.

The child could just as freely chosen to misbehave - still had the free will to do so, but the child has the benefit of more information to make a better choice with more information about the consequences. Free will is enhanced by more information, never by a lack of information.

[Super Universe]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

It is likely the child would choose to alter behavior. This does not mean the child's freedom of will is restricted. The degree of freedom was not impacted, though the choices may have differed.

The child could just as freely chosen to misbehave - still had the free will to do so, but the child has the benefit of more information to make a better choice with more information about the consequences. Free will is enhanced by more information, never by a lack of information.

The child has more information to make a better choice? To you, perhaps. Think of yourself when you were young. What choices did you make that you learned from? Would you be the person you are today if not for those life lessons? And, regardless of your level of maturity, you still have a long ways to go.

People take all of this much too seriously. No one is harmed, nothing is destroyed, things are only changed. It's like being inside a video game, do real parents care whether their child's video game character dies?